Perhaps they should have thought about that before they went into debt for flight training, eh?  Or even better yet, don't finance way over your head so that you are forced into such a position.  

What you're saying is not a solution, unless you've a time machine for those pilots to go back in time and not start training or not accept the contract they're on? The situation is as it is, the only way to change it is from the inside.

 

 

Looking at this thread, it came to my mind that so many of us want capitalism and a free economy. 

Eh, no, I don't. Nor do I want communism/socialism, center politics are the way forward.

 

 

Oh...oh... don't forget deregulation!  I agree with your viewpoint - nothing good ever comes of the government managing anything.  Let the economy, supply and demand control the direction that the companies take.

I'd agree to a certain extent on supply and demand, but the aviation industry is slightly different. A good example would be here in Ireland last year, Ryanair tried to takeover Aer Lingus, this would have resulted in only one carrier to Ireland, so was shot down by the government as prices would have sky rocketed. Now you could say that if prices sky rocket competitors would arrive on scene, but that's not quite the case with aviation, aviation has very high barriers to start ups, you can't just start a route tomorrow and hope it works, it takes a good 3-4 months lead in to get bookings in. In the case Ryanair though, they've become too big to compete with, Aer Lingus being the only airline in Europe actually capable of competeing with them successfully. When another airline comes to compete with Ryanair, Ryanair drop their prices for €1, run the route at much higher frequency. Ryanair lose millions, but they can afford to, the other airline pulls out and prices skyrocket again. We've seen this time and time again in Ireland with Ryanair, first with EasyJet, then Flybe and now Wizz, the end result being that on those services, prices are much higher.

 

Basically, the government should act in the interest of the people to ensure a monopoly or close to a monopoly does not occur. That's their job, to make sure that the citizens they represent get the best deal.

 

I also wouldn't say nothing good comes from Government management, I'd say plenty of things do, but they're essential services that cannot or should not be operated at or for a profit ie: Gardaí, Fire Services, Health Care, Water Supply, Gas, Electricity, telephone etc Other things are much better run by private industry, such as food, luxury goods, non essential services like aviation, mobile networks, fuel supplies, banking, computers, tv, games, internet, news sources etc.

 

Regards,

Ró.

 

 

Eh, no, I don't. Nor do I want communism/socialism, center politics are the way forward.

Europe is very different than the U.S, what works in Europe very rarely works here.

What you're saying is not a solution, unless you've a time machine for those pilots to go back in time and not start training or not accept the contract they're on? The situation is as it is, the only way to change it is from the inside.

 

 

Eh, no, I don't. Nor do I want communism/socialism, center politics are the way forward.

 

 

I'd agree to a certain extent on supply and demand, but the aviation industry is slightly different. A good example would be here in Ireland last year, Ryanair tried to takeover Aer Lingus, this would have resulted in only one carrier to Ireland, so was shot down by the government as prices would have sky rocketed. Now you could say that if prices sky rocket competitors would arrive on scene, but that's not quite the case with aviation, aviation has very high barriers to start ups, you can't just start a route tomorrow and hope it works, it takes a good 3-4 months lead in to get bookings in. In the case Ryanair though, they've become too big to compete with, Aer Lingus being the only airline in Europe actually capable of competeing with them successfully. When another airline comes to compete with Ryanair, Ryanair drop their prices for €1, run the route at much higher frequency. Ryanair lose millions, but they can afford to, the other airline pulls out and prices skyrocket again. We've seen this time and time again in Ireland with Ryanair, first with EasyJet, then Flybe and now Wizz, the end result being that on those services, prices are much higher.

 

Basically, the government should act in the interest of the people to ensure a monopoly or close to a monopoly does not occur. That's their job, to make sure that the citizens they represent get the best deal.

 

I also wouldn't say nothing good comes from Government management, I'd say plenty of things do, but they're essential services that cannot or should not be operated at or for a profit ie: Gardaí, Fire Services, Health Care, Water Supply, Gas, Electricity, telephone etc Other things are much better run by private industry, such as food, luxury goods, non essential services like aviation, mobile networks, fuel supplies, banking, computers, tv, games, internet, news sources etc.

 

Regards,

Ró.

 

I agree with this. And I would support the DOJ's decision if American and US Airways were the only two carriers in the US.  But, they aren't. This hold up (and that's all I think it is) is a business play by United and Delta, designed to increase their control of the market in and out of the US.

 

But anyway, the DOJ has no case. This merger will continue, albeit after a few slot concessions from AMR and US.

Europe is very different than the U.S, what works in Europe very rarely works here.

Yee've never tried it properly, yee only have realistically a choice between a right wing party, and a far right wing party...  :mellow:

 

Regards,

Ró.

Yee've never tried it properly, yee only have realistically a choice between a right wing party, and a far right wing party...  :mellow:

 

Regards,

Ró.

 

And both parties here are garbage, I'm always headed to the polls with a gloomy outlook given the few choices we have. 

 

 

Yee've never tried it properly, yee only have realistically a choice between a right wing party, and a far right wing party... 

And they both have agreed to disagree on everything. The U.S. government cannot make any decisions in a hurry.

I agree, but there is another aspect you are missing - that people are WILLING to work for those wages.  Companies will get away with paying as low as possible.  This is nothing new and I'm still surprised as to why people run around yelling that companies are greedy.

 

Making more than zero is always better than making zero dollars. Thus if supply (people looking for a job) is greater than demand (jobs available) a company can leverage that disparity to drive down wages. (What, you don't want to work for $0.50 an hour? Fine, I'll hire someone who will). There will always be someone willing to work for X wages if their only other option is to get no wages at all.

 

 

I also wouldn't say nothing good comes from Government management, I'd say plenty of things do, but they're essential services that cannot or should not be operated at or for a profit ie: Gardaí, Fire Services, Health Care, Water Supply, Gas, Electricity, telephone etc Other things are much better run by private industry, such as food, luxury goods, non essential services like aviation, mobile networks, fuel supplies, banking, computers, tv, games, internet, news sources etc.



Regards,

Ró.

 

I agree with you except now I do not flavor anymore at all Corporate being involved in the food services industry (restaurants). Even now I am having second thoughts about them being in the food chain supply whatsoever. That leaves them just with distribution I guess. We can't allow food to be at the whims and mercy of "for profit".  It might already be too late by now. When the free market works is called Capitalism when it doesn't is called Racketeering or worse.    

 

Cheers,

I agree with you except now I do not flavor anymore at all Corporate being involved in the food services industry (restaurants). Even now I am having second thoughts about them being in the food chain supply whatsoever. That leaves them just with distribution I guess. We can't allow food to be at the whims and mercy of "for profit".  It might already be too late by now. When the free market works is called Capitalism when it doesn't is called Racketeering or worse.    

 

Cheers,

 

I'd agree to a certain extent that the state should have an involvement in the food supply chain, like last year when the Food Safety Authority of Ireland (FSAI) uncovered the European horse meat crisis. Had it not been for the FSAI, then that could have gone unknown about, so I think certainly they need to be involved in standards checking and monitoring.

 

Also very important that they provide food for those unable to afford it, but I don't think that the state should be the go to person for food. I need something to spend my wages on, and personally I don't mind spending that bit extra for Irish Grown and Organic foods, some might want the cheapest food they can find and some might want a mix. So on that front I don't mind the food chain being a profit making entity, as it gives us the choice and allows up to pick what we value most in our food.

 

Regards,

Ró.

Perhaps they should have thought about that before they went into debt for flight training, eh?  Or even better yet, don't finance way over your head so that you are forced into such a position.  That is one of the primary problems with pay and QOL life - pilots go into massive debt financing flight training and then they are forced to take a job (at any wage) so that they can start paying off the debt.  From there they are forced to work at these poverty level wages and there is always someone willing to undercut the next guy in line so that they keep their job.  It's a race to the bottom and it won't stop until people start to realize they are worth more than that.  We all know the companies stance - if they can get away with it they will do it.  They don't care what person is sitting in the seat as long as they are legal.

 

If people want to take the job making that low level of a wage than that is completely their decision, but at the same time they really have no avenue to complain 'that companies are greedy' when they willingly took the job in the first place full well knowing what pay and QOL they'd be making before they even started flight training.

 

 

Here's where lack of education comes into play.  I've been an avid aviation buff for years but some of what I'm reading in this thread is new to even me.  Conservatives allot of times look at things in total black and white meaning there's no room for a grey area.  There are far too many times we end up in something not realizing the whole picture for a host of reasons.  When I joined the Navy I had no one to tell me what it really was like.  I wanted to be around fighter aircraft and thought I could work my way up.  Low and behold if you go in as an enlisted it's nearly impossible to cross over to the Officer ranks much less be a pilot.  I always thought you went from E to O as a natural progression.  There was no internet at the time where I could bounce in and ask questions.  You hoped the recruiters were being up front with you and the ones I had told me I could easily move up.  Now I know one needs to go to college first and then apply and not apply at the recruiter stations that canvas high schools.  There are too many people in our society that don't know how the government or business really works.  That's why there's so many bleeding hearts when it comes to Guantanamo Bay, idiots like Snowden, and the transgender guy who just went to jail for leaking info to Wikileaks.  People are clueless and you can see it when it comes to how they go about choosing a career, voting, etc.  Only once their in it do they understand.  It always surprised me when I went overseas how well informed people were.  They didn't wait for CNN, MSNBC, or other outlets to spoon feed them information.  I was totally impress and it made an impact on how I view things.  

 

Now who's fault is that when you have a school system that's failing on all counts and non of them have ever taught real classes about being an entrepreneur.  You can't just blame people and that's where conservatives loose the argument.  It comes off as personal attacks.  Conservative assume just because they know something others are privi to the same info or know where to find it.  Today with the internet it's harder to make that argument but just the same you have to know what your looking for to get the right answers on the internet.  There's allot of bad info out there...  Here's an example, it amazes me real pilots today won't use the tools available to be safe.  Case in point many pilots scoff at Flight Simulator not knowing if they used it less accidents would happen when flying into unfamiliar areas (that's one example out of many where FS could be used to train and stay familiar with procedures).  An accident like Asiana should never happen with the info we have out there (if their excuse holds true about being unfamiliar with the aircraft and the area)...  Lack of knowledge is not isolated to one group of people or class.  Where do you get the knowledge before going into something, many people don't know.  I'm surprised at some of my IT coworkers who don't know how to properly look for a job in this digital internet era.  Door to door knocking is a thing of the past.  You take that and think about the inner city children, they are really clueless as to how things work.  

 

So all that is to say people get into aviation because of the love of flying.  Details escape them as they just want to do what they love.  You come in and say it's your fault versus addressing bad business practices you'll loose votes everytime.  You do have a choice, go to Europe and fly or deal with the crap in America not addressing things in America that need to change.  It's just like the argument don't buy medicine because it's too high instead of addressing the fact we are being gouged by the prices being charged for medication.  Obamacare is not going to solve that problem but rather hurt everybody because the high cost of medicine is not being addressed.  What's really going on with the prices we are being charged?  The wisdom with many American businesses is as log as people are desperate we can treat them however we want, that mentality has to change because in the area of commercial aviation their putting $20,000 a year paid people in charge of a $36 million dollar aircraft with 67+ souls on board on a daily bases.  All of us have to fly from time to time and we may just be the unlucky ones thanks to this kind of business practice...

Europe is very different than the U.S, what works in Europe very rarely works here.

 

 

Not true, when it's convenient the Europe model is being pushed through congress with new laws everyday (heck, votes don't even matter anymore).  It's really screwing allot of things up for us... 

I'd agree to a certain extent on supply and demand, but the aviation industry is slightly different. A good example would be here in Ireland last year, Ryanair tried to takeover Aer Lingus, this would have resulted in only one carrier to Ireland, so was shot down by the government as prices would have sky rocketed. Now you could say that if prices sky rocket competitors would arrive on scene, but that's not quite the case with aviation, aviation has very high barriers to start ups, you can't just start a route tomorrow and hope it works, it takes a good 3-4 months lead in to get bookings in. In the case Ryanair though, they've become too big to compete with, Aer Lingus being the only airline in Europe actually capable of competeing with them successfully. When another airline comes to compete with Ryanair, Ryanair drop their prices for €1, run the route at much higher frequency. Ryanair lose millions, but they can afford to, the other airline pulls out and prices skyrocket again. We've seen this time and time again in Ireland with Ryanair, first with EasyJet, then Flybe and now Wizz, the end result being that on those services, prices are much higher.

 

Basically, the government should act in the interest of the people to ensure a monopoly or close to a monopoly does not occur. That's their job, to make sure that the citizens they represent get the best deal.

 

I also wouldn't say nothing good comes from Government management, I'd say plenty of things do, but they're essential services that cannot or should not be operated at or for a profit ie: Gardaí, Fire Services, Health Care, Water Supply, Gas, Electricity, telephone etc Other things are much better run by private industry, such as food, luxury goods, non essential services like aviation, mobile networks, fuel supplies, banking, computers, tv, games, internet, news sources etc.

 

Regards,

Ró.

 

 

You hit the nail on all points.  Great post, I 100% agree...

 

I'd agree to a certain extent that the state should have an involvement in the food supply chain, like last year when the Food Safety Authority of Ireland (FSAI) uncovered the European horse meat crisis. Had it not been for the FSAI, then that could have gone unknown about, so I think certainly they need to be involved in standards checking and monitoring.

 

Also very important that they provide food for those unable to afford it, but I don't think that the state should be the go to person for food. I need something to spend my wages on, and personally I don't mind spending that bit extra for Irish Grown and Organic foods, some might want the cheapest food they can find and some might want a mix. So on that front I don't mind the food chain being a profit making entity, as it gives us the choice and allows up to pick what we value most in our food.

 

Regards,

Ró.

 

I wrote about a problem but I didn't indicate solutions and most certainly I would never have thought about a Government solution about it nor I would have thought stopping farmers for haggling best prices for the products in an open market nor I would have advocated for free food from the State.   

 

Cheers,

I wrote about a problem but I didn't indicate solutions and most certainly I would never have thought about a Government solution about it nor I would have thought stopping farmers for haggling best prices for the products in an open market nor I would have advocated for free food from the State.   

 

Cheers,

Sorry, my bad, what was the point you did intend making then? I must have misunderstood you...  :mellow:

 

Regards,

Ró.

Ró,

 

Food is becoming cr.p Globally (Globalization anyone?) at a very fast and accelerating passe. My suspect Corporate is the reason. So I want them out now before it gets worse.

 

Regards,

Ah, I see. I'd disagree though, I'd say that's a local thing confined to where you're based. The quality of food certainly where I am hasn't changed since I was a kid. Certainly a lot more variety has come in, but the quality hasn't gotten worse. Worse quality food has become available I'll agree, but the normal and high quality food is still there and easily available.

 

Regards,

Ró.

Ró,

 

Food is becoming cr.p Globally (Globalization anyone?) at a very fast and accelerating passe. My suspect Corporate is the reason. So I want them out now before it gets worse.

 

Regards,

 

Corn subsidies actually have a lot to do with that, at least in the States.