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bönan

3000 feet runways - possible?

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I have been thinking about flying the J41 out of my local airfield, Orsa Tallhed (ESNR). The airfield in question had commercial flights with Convair CV-440s until 1971 when a larger airport, Mora-Siljan (ESKM), able to handle jet traffic, was opened closer to town. I would like to fly some "what if"-flights that would probably have still existed if not the new airport had been built. My home field was built during WW2 and has two runways: A 3000 feet asphalt runway formerly used by the commercial traffic and a 2500 feet long grass runway. The airfield is located about 600 feet above sea level.

 

I'm aware that the J41 requires 4700 feet to get airborne at MTOW, but the flights I would be doing is just 175nm - no need for much fuel. So, would it be possible and safe to operate the J41 from my airfield?

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You would need to find the charts for the aircraft to determine that. I have searched but cannot find them, maybe someone else has.

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You would need to find the charts for the aircraft to determine that. I have searched but cannot find them, maybe someone else has.

 

Yeah, what he said. Luckily this is FS, you can always just try and see what happens. Even if you run off the end of the runway, nobody gets hurt.  B)

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I believe You are obliged to have at least 5.000ft runway. It is definitely in the documentation, I recall the chapter with operations limitations at the beginning of the book.

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I can't find anyting in the manual on this subject. However, I've completed a numer of test flights at different weights, up to a gross weight of 22000 pounds it's possible to safely take off from a 3000 feet runway. As I will fly with light loads from this airprot everything should be OK. :)

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I'd have to look into the charts. But if you are interested in realism you have to keep in mind a couple thing.  Just because the aircraft became airborne while still on pavement doesn't make a T/O legal.  Among other things, you must meet, the T/O Runway required and Accelerate-Stop and Accelerate-Go distances.  The Accelerate-Stop distance being the most limiting.  Then there are the 4 segment climb requirements on top of all that.

 

That being said, its flight simulator, enjoy and have fun!

 

Brian Thibodeaux

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Wait for a strong head wind :wink:

 

Sad to say but today we were performance limited on a 7155' runway at MTOW!

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I'd have to look into the charts. But if you are interested in realism you have to keep in mind a couple thing.  Just because the aircraft became airborne while still on pavement doesn't make a T/O legal.  Among other things, you must meet, the T/O Runway required and Accelerate-Stop and Accelerate-Go distances.  The Accelerate-Stop distance being the most limiting.  Then there are the 4 segment climb requirements on top of all that.

 

That being said, its flight simulator, enjoy and have fun!

 

Brian Thibodeaux

 

Your accelerate/stop distance isn't your limiting factor, this is due to the fact that the JS41 can GO with one engine. Your limiting distance is either how far it will take to reach V1 with both engines then V2 with one engine or how long it will take to reach V1 -1 knot and abort the takeoff.

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Your accelerate/stop distance isn't your limiting factor, this is due to the fact that the JS41 can GO with one engine. Your limiting distance is either how far it will take to reach V1 with both engines then V2 with one engine or how long it will take to reach V1 -1 knot and abort the takeoff.

 

Please don't take this as me showing you up.  Again FS is about learning and challenging yourself. But 

§ 121.189   Airplanes: Turbine engine powered: Takeoff limitations.

FAR 121.189 ( c) (1) The accelerate-stop distance must not exceed the length of the runway plus the length of any stopway.

 

Again if you want legality as to why you might not be able to operate the 41 out of this particular field this would be one of the limiting factors.  However, I'm sure the aircraft is plenty capable of getting off the ground inside of 3000' if you want to just do it.  I'm sure the Fed isn't sitting on the ground waiting to catch ya in the act :-).

 

A good way to look at this would be.  Just because a aircraft can go, doesn't mean you HAVE to go.  There are plenty of reasons I wouldn't want to take an aircraft into the air.  What if I reach my Vcef  speed and I have a uncontained engine failure? I'm not about to take that plane in the air.

 

Brian Thibodeaux

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Your accelerate/stop distance isn't your limiting factor, this is due to the fact that the JS41 can GO with one engine. Your limiting distance is either how far it will take to reach V1 with both engines then V2 with one engine or how long it will take to reach V1 -1 knot and abort the takeoff.

 

You can also lower your V1 speed to reflect the lower than standard runway length.

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Please don't take this as me showing you up.  Again FS is about learning and challenging yourself. But 

§ 121.189   Airplanes: Turbine engine powered: Takeoff limitations.

FAR 121.189 ( c) (1) The accelerate-stop distance must not exceed the length of the runway plus the length of any stopway.

 

Again if you want legality as to why you might not be able to operate the 41 out of this particular field this would be one of the limiting factors.  However, I'm sure the aircraft is plenty capable of getting off the ground inside of 3000' if you want to just do it.  I'm sure the Fed isn't sitting on the ground waiting to catch ya in the act :-).

 

A good way to look at this would be.  Just because a aircraft can go, doesn't mean you HAVE to go.  There are plenty of reasons I wouldn't want to take an aircraft into the air.  What if I reach my Vcef  speed and I have a uncontained engine failure? I'm not about to take that plane in the air.

 

Brian Thibodeaux

 

I don't take it at all as who knows more about the FARs, trust me especially when you get multiple CFIs in a discussion it will go round and round in circles until no one knows the right answer.

 

Looking at my notes for ME stuff, the limiting factor for the OPs reference is the most limiting of these three factors.

-All engine go distance which is 115% of the actual ground plus distance required to reach 35 feet

-Engine out, Accelerate-Go which the aircraft must be able to accelerate to V2 at 35 feet.

-Accelerate Stop.

 

Without looking at the charts for the JS41 it has been my experience that the loss of the critical engine more adversely affects performance than an abort at one second before V1.

 

All of this of course changes with different runway conditions.

Here's the link from a takeoff safety article to the airlines provided by the FAA: an interesting read. http://www.faa.gov/other_visit/aviation_industry/airline_operators/training/media/takeoff_safety.pdf

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he most limiting of these three factors.

 

This part of the sentence sums it up the most.  You must compute all of the distances.  The most restrictive (meaning the greatest distance) determines whether you have enough runway.  So given most of the time Acel-Stop is the most restrictive it very much counts.  Just because you are able to accel and go doesn't mean you are legally able to make the departure as the Acel stop might actually be the most restrictive.  Make sense?

 

 
Brian Thibodeaux

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According to a BAe brochure, 4,000 ft with 29 passengers is legally possible, I think 3,000 ft is probably pushing it a bit, it's definitely doable but probably not safely.

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In AIrHauler I used to fly J41's into Yongphulla (VQ10.) The runway is 4,140 feet long, but because of a steep approach path in FS you can only use a little over half of the runway. What I mean is that you touchdown about 1500 feet ahead of the start of the runway.

 

This being said, I'm sure the J41 can land at 3000 foot runways as long as you have a light load... it's one heck of a rugged plane.

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According to a BAe brochure, 4,000 ft with 29 passengers is legally possible, I think 3,000 ft is probably pushing it a bit, it's definitely doable but probably not safely.

It may well be possible to operate from 3,000 ft safely if the load is reduced. Without any takeoff data it's not possible to be sure. But this is FSX, so you can experiment and see what load you can lift and still have room to stop in the event of a failure.

 

Edit:

 

I just googled this brochure. Page 59 appears to show the minimum runway they produced figures for was around 4,000 ft. That doesn't mean it couldn't operate from less, but no airline would want to do so if it couldn't operate economically at full capacity. The graph is for a 200 ft elevation runway, so at 600 ft it would be slightly better.  The higher SHP line might extrapolate to 8000 kg TOW on 1000m (3208 ft) runway. But that would be about 12 pax and no fuel, or no pax and 1200 kg of fuel.

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Just asked the captain I'm flying with today, who happens to have a bunch of hours on the 41. He estimated that with a 1000m runway like Orsa Tallhed you would be very limited. Say 600-800kg and a pax or 3-6. That's if your willing to disregard all regulations required for a pax transport flight :P.

 

Btw, I've got a fair amount of landings in Mora :). It would be whole lot smarter to fly from there, especially with foggy mornings like today.

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Just asked the captain I'm flying with today, who happens to have a bunch of hours on the 41. He estimated that with a 1000m runway like Orsa Tallhed you would be very limited. Say 600-800kg and a pax or 3-6. That's if your willing to disregard all regulations required for a pax transport flight :P.

 

Btw, I've got a fair amount of landings in Mora :). It would be whole lot smarter to fly from there, especially with foggy mornings like today.

Ah, thanks! I guess I have to find myself another plane, a King Air or something, or just stretch the limits a bit. ;) Mora is also a nice airport, thats where I first flew like ten years ago, and I'm currently working on my PPL there. :)

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Ah, thanks! I guess I have to find myself another plane, a King Air or something, or just stretch the limits a bit. ;) Mora is also a nice airport, thats where I first flew like ten years ago, and I'm currently working on my PPL there. :)

 

Wait! I made a video and the J41 can land at Orsa.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hM8vaLrH5yA&feature

 

I did not include takeoff in the video, but I assure you, I did take off successfully with the J41 from runway 3.

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