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Bert Pieke

How get rid of flaps warning sound?

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The Citation sounds a low, repeating warning beep when Flaps are at 20 and the gear is up.

 

I have looked in every gauge and cannot locate the source of this sound.

 

Anyone have an idea?

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LOL... take off with flaps 20 is "correct" behavior.. so that is not helping me much..

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NFP: "Positive Rate"

FP : "Gear Up, Flaps 10".

 

Not sure about the Citation, but works real world in the Gulfstream. :)

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I suppose you can find the warning .wav file in the sound folder and modify it with Audacity to 0db. It not a perfect fix but you will not hear it. I usually do this on every Carenado release for the "TRAFFIC" warning etc....

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Have not been able to locate it, but Kerry's checklist would indeed get rid of it.. B)

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Have not been able to locate it, but Kerry's checklist would indeed get rid of it.. B)

Except for the times you want to fly at V2 + 10 with 20 degrees of flap like the standard procedure. Postitive Climb, Gear Up, Flaps up at a minimum of V2+10. No warning sound should be heard during a normal takeoff sequence. Someone will find it. I have asked Carenado to look into it.

 

btw.

 

SP2 is in work. If you have anything you would like evaluated/fixed/explained/changed etc. now would be a good time to contact Support@Carenado.com Make sure you ask that it gets fixed with SP2.

 

Be sure you tell them which sim you are using and the version or configuration. Tell them as much as you know about the problem, when it happens, or where it happens, when is does not happen, etc. Oh, and make sure you let them know it is for the S550 Citation II that you are requesting assistance.

 

Regards,

Ray

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Hi Bert,

 

I don't have the plane but I think on the PC12 it calls the L:Buffer variables which also control the horns. I vaguely recall the buffer variables relating to DH or gear horn sounds. I'll have to check to confirm that is how the PC12 behaves but I would envisage the citation II might be similar?

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This flaps warning should be inhibited by a weight-on-wheels switch. This may be emulated using the (A:SIM ON GROUND,bool) flag.

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Fr. Bill,

 

We get this sound when we have more than 7 degrees of flaps extended and the Gear is UP. Seems like Airspeed or Altitude is not a factor but the airplane is airborne. I will fly and make sure of the configuration.

 

OK, I cycled the gear with the horn sounding with 20 deg flaps extended. The warning sound stops when the gear is locked down or when flaps are retracted to the next lower position - 7 degrees for the S/II.

 

Thanks.

 

Ray

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Flaps 20 on takeoff is normal? I find that hard to believe...

 

As for the warning... there should be a horn silence button.

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Just as Normal as can be. These things were designed for the short outlying airports and to fly low and slow. 20 degrees flap get it up and flying a little quicker, lowers VR by two or three knots. You do things like this to outperform a turboprop.

 

Regards,

 

Ray

S550 Takeoff.JPG

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Yeah... but the shorter takeoff distance has different obstacle clearance capabilities than a normal takeoff and should only be used when needed.

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Well maybe I need to feed you a little more S550 info. Standard Performance Conditions call for either 7 deg or 20 deg Flaps. Almost everyone flying the S550 uses the 20 deg choice for better safety margins.

 

You may be thinking the S550 is the same as the Citation II that you may have worked on in a previous life. It is not. The CE550 flap positions are Zero or 15 deg for takeoff.

 

The S550 has larger flaps - 4 actually - and they are placed closer to the fuselage for just this purpose.

 

The no flap condition is not a recommended takeoff configuration for the S/II. As you have already been shown, the 20 degree configuration is the recommended one of the two.

 

Regards,

Ray

Perf gen.JPG

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I believe you have me mistaken with someone else. I've never made a 55x. So far your provided information has not shown that 20* is the 'common' or 'normal' flap position. So... I still question the claim it 'correct'. Available and of value when needed, certainly. But to be used for every takeoff... sorry... see nothing to indicate that at all.

 

Oh... just to be crystal clear... has nothing to do with the lack of horn silence button which is the actual problem.

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Hey Ed,

 

Why don't you move along, you obviously have nothing positive or constructive to contribute in this Carenado Support Forum. You don't own the plane, you don't even know the basic capabilites as you have 'never seen' the Pressure System or have any experience flying one.

 

The 20 degrees flap setting has everything to do with the sounds. That is what kicked off the query.

 

Not intending to be rude, but . . . .

 

Regards,

 

Ray

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For those of you that are not familiar with the flap settings for the S550, they are a little different from most of the other Citations. This is partially because of the advanced supercritical wing design, the oversized fowler flaps and Cessna's desire to have a straight-wing Citation break the 400 Knot cruise barrier, and still have really slow takeoff, approach and landing speeds.

 

The S550 was a replacement for the Citation II but was priced a little too high for the gains. After about two years of production Cessna brought back the Citation II as a entry model to compete head on with the Turboprops. Just prior to this, Cessna would guarantee in writing that if you bought a S550 and if wasn't cheaper to own and operate when compared to your turboprop they would write you a check for the difference. No checks were ever requested.

 

One way to beat the Turboprop was to out perform it on its own playing field. This required a very slow approach and landing speed, and naturally a very aggressive takeoff profile to get out of the usually shorter, outlying fields that the Turboprops played in.

 

The additional 10,000 - 15,000 feet of cruising altitude and the 150 knots speed advantage plus the ramp appeal was easier to achieve.

 

One of the nifty enhancements was a Takeoff and Approach setting of 20 degrees for flaps for Normal Takeoffs. Normal landings call for full flap (35 degrees) but approach is 20 deg flap. There is also a mid flap setting, of sorts. This is the 7 degree flap takeoff. Zero flap landings and takeoffs are not recommended except in the most extreme circumstances.

 

One of the better uses of the 7 degree flap setting is to help slow the Citation when coming down from high altitude cruise or starting a long and drawn out approach. You can deploy flaps, even the 20 degree setting at 200 knots. Gear Operating speed is 250 knots with a fix that almost all of the S550 have by now.

 

Slowing down a Citation is not a problem like with the sleeker Lears and Gulfstreams. You can drop the gear, deploy 20 degrees flaps, and extend speed brakes all at the same time. This is why most Citation pilots request to stay high longer and then drop in the terminal area with a very steep descent profile. That way they maintain usually better speeds, for sure better fuel flow, and have no problems fitting in with the other arriving high speed traffic. ATC even likes them not holding up traffic.

 

Hence, the detent for the flaps is labelled TO & Appr, Full flap is labelled Landing, and then you have Up and 7 degrees. The 7 degrees is usually reserved for takeoffs at the large terminal type airports, mostly so the Citation will not look like a Cessna 172 climbing out by having a flatter climb profile.

 

Anyway, the short runway requirements are tied to the 20 degree flap setting. The technique for a 'Normal Takeoff' is to make a static runup with the brakes on, until takeoff power, N1, is confirmed then release the brakes and rotate exactly at VR. Not even close to VR, exactly at VR according the the AFM. This will be explained in the Avsim review.

 

The AFM further states that given a choice of 20 deg flap or 7 degrees flaps, you should opt for the 20 degree setting. This is just a little edge for the safety margin should you have to abort or any other malfunction on takeoff.

 

The question being asked is does anyone know where Carenado buried the sound file for the 'pulsating tone', more like a weak warning, that we get when we perform a Normal takeoff with 20 degrees flaps. In this case, at near Sea Level you will rotate in about 2,000 feet and when you have positive climb, you should retract the gear. But, you are specifically told not to retract flaps until V2 +10 knots. I agree this comes fairly rapidly, but this irritating - bong, bong, bong - is there until the flaps get to the 7 degree setting or full up.

 

Most Turbine schools teach that no "lifting device" should be retracted on takeoff and climb out until 1,000 feet AGL. This has to do with avoiding a common error of inexperienced copilots commanding full retraction rather than one-step flap retraction as the Captain had intended.

 

That is what we have been seeking. Where do we find the sound file and delete it?

 

Regards,

 

Ray

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Sound files are located in the sounds folder of the Carenado citation main folder.

 

The call up of the relevant wav file is via the sound.cfg file within this folder.

 

Alternatively, and this may be why it can't be found, it could be referencing any generic warning sound located in the FSX or P3d sounds folder.

 

Raymar if you can PM me the contents of the sound.cfg after all the stuff on the engine sound effects I can try and help.

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Shuai Li,

 

Thanks for the offer but, we have listened to every file in the Sound Folder. It is not a file found there. Carenado is using some other method of accessing the noise, so it is being called from someplace.

 

Regards,

 

Ray

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Interesting. I just changed out the Carenado Sound files for the TSS Citation II (from 2008) Sound Pack and the annoying flap warning is not present in the TSS sound pack. Hmmm. I might have to retract my statements about not needing to look for an add on sound pack for the S550.

 

I have a temporary fix for now. Maybe SP2 will have the fix in it.

 

Regards,

 

Ray

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Shuai Li,

 

Thanks for the offer but, we have listened to every file in the Sound Folder. It is not a file found there. Carenado is using some other method of accessing the noise, so it is being called from someplace.

 

Regards,

 

Ray

Hi Ray,

 

As I said it might be referencing and generic wav file outside of the Citation II sounds folder, in the main parent sounds folder. If changing the sound.cfg file removed it, then it's definitely in there.

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As a work around I changed flap_limit_power from 19 to 21 in the aircraft.cfg file.  This should of course prevent it from sounding at flaps 20 on approach with no gear, which may be unrealistic  . . .

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<<<<< GOOD NEWS >>>>>

I got an email from Carenado Support this morning that states this Flap Warning Issue was addressed in SP2.
 

Yea Team.

 

Regards,

 

Ray

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