Yeah, I'd be surprised if they didn't keep them on when powered in general, but some airlines do some pretty weird stuff "because reasons."

 

 

 

Just so people know, my "best friend's sister's boyfriend's brother's girlfriend who heard from this guy who knows this kid who's going with the girl [...]" line is a reference to a movie to add a little humor...but I realize not everyone probably gets it, so, for those who don't:

Yer dating yourself.  But since you brought it up, I like this one better (paying more attention to the beginning of the clip of course).

 

 

-Jim

 

 

If I were to say something as outlandish and unlikely as a certain airline doesn't use nav lights on my channel, I'd have had to find that from a very reliable source.

 

Exactly. It's always about the qualifier, which is why I used 'often' in my earlier message. When I'm not sure, I tend to use "I believe," or "from what I remember" to help illustrate that it may not be fully reliable and further research may be required. Where able, I'll also provide the regulatory/manual/document reference, but I also have expressed a hope that people check my info against other people's. If not just to be sure, but to get an alternate viewpoint or explanation on the same or a similar concept.

 

 

Yer dating yourself.  But since you brought it up, I like this one better (paying more attention to the beginning of the clip of course).

 

haha - another good clip!

 

"...what's that make us?"

Hello!

I think I can help with this.

 

This is an extract from ICAO Annex 2 Rules of the Air

3.2.3.1 Except as provided by 3.2.3.5, from sunset to
sunrise or during any other period which may be prescribed by
the appropriate authority all aircraft in flight shall display:
a) anti-collision lights intended to attract attention to the
aircraft; and
B) navigation lights intended to indicate the relative path of
the aircraft to an observer and other lights shall not be
displayed if they are likely to be mistaken for these
lights.

3.2.3.5 A pilot shall be permitted to switch off or reduce
the intensity of any flashing lights fitted to meet the requirements
of 3.2.3.1, 3.2.3.2, 3.2.3.3 and 3.2.3.4 if they do or are
likely to:
a) adversely affect the satisfactory performance of duties;
or
B) subject an outside observer to harmful dazzle.

So BA Virtual are in effect wrong. Navigation lights do not flash! I have never not seen a BA aircraft day or night without its nav lights on except when they are parked..

 

Please re-read the extract you have posted: there is an important qualifier in 3.2.3.1, which is from sunset to sunrise -- i.e. they are only mandatory at night. 3.2.3.5 permits you to turn off (or turn down) any flashing lights that would otherwise be required (i.e. at night) if they are distracting (so you don't have to leave the strobes on if they are bouncing off the inside of a cloud, for example).

 

BA policy is to leave the nav lights off during the day (with the exception of checking they work during the walkaround). 

 

Here is the direct quote from the BA Operations Manual:

 

8.3.15 Aircraft Lights

Navigation lights will be switched on during operations at night, and normally be switched off during daylight. 

 

Of course, the Commander's discretion applies, and (over deepest darkest Africa at night, for example) he may elect to turn them on during daylight if he so wishes.

 

Hope that clears it up.

 

Best,

 

Simon

 

Edit to add: the EASA reference is SERA.3215 Lights to Be Displayed by Aircraft, for information.

 

 

over deepest darkest Africa at night, for example

 

Honestly, in Africa - cruise or not - I'd probably have every light on at all times just in case. Some areas there have an odd definition of "ATC."

Funny the lights issue again. Odd in this day and age there is no definitive guidelines as to correct usage of lights, more down to pilot discretion. If I read correctly. 

Funny the lights issue again. Odd in this day and age there is no definitive guidelines as to correct usage of lights, more down to pilot discretion. If I read correctly. 

 

There are some regulatory requirements (generally relating to night operations) outlined in the Rules of the Air. If the laws were overly-prescriptive, you could end up in a situation where your flight, scheduled to take place in crystal-clear, bright sunshine VMC in the middle of the day, gets cancelled because a bulb blew on a nav light. Plus, there are more safety-critical things to go round enforcing (from an xAA's point of view).

 

However, individual airlines will have their own policies which must conform to the regulations (and are approved by the regulator) but otherwise can be developed to suit their own ends. In BA's case, the policy of encouraging pilots not usually turning the nav lights on during the day is, I believe, for bulb life reasons (no point using out bulbs all day when you don't legally have to have them on, only to have to delay or cancel a night flight where they are required because a bulb's burnt out).

 

 

Honestly, in Africa - cruise or not - I'd probably have every light on at all times just in case. Some areas there have an odd definition of "ATC."

 

 

Indeed -- I've read some very hair-raising ASRs, including one incident on a dark night over Niger where two 747s ended up at the same level, on the same airway, pointed directly at each other.

 

Fortunately the crews were on the ball (and, as it happens, were displaying all available lights) and were able to take action...

There are some regulatory requirements (generally relating to night operations) outlined in the Rules of the Air. If the laws were overly-prescriptive, you could end up in a situation where your flight, scheduled to take place in crystal-clear, bright sunshine VMC in the middle of the day, gets cancelled because a bulb blew on a nav light. Plus, there are more safety-critical things to go round enforcing (from an xAA's point of view).

 

However, individual airlines will have their own policies which must conform to the regulations (and are approved by the regulator) but otherwise can be developed to suit their own ends. In BA's case, the policy of encouraging pilots not usually turning the nav lights on during the day is, I believe, for bulb life reasons (no point using out bulbs all day when you don't legally have to have them on, only to have to delay or cancel a night flight where they are required because a bulb's burnt out).

 

 

 

Indeed -- I've read some very hair-raising ASRs, including one incident on a dark night over Niger where two 747s ended up at the same level, on the same airway, pointed directly at each other.

 

Fortunately the crews were on the ball (and, as it happens, were displaying all available lights) and were able to take action...

 

Really interests me this "what lights to use and when" issue. See in cockpit vids the landing lights are flipped on on finals, yet the,  below 10,000 foot rule ???? It's not definitive enough in my eyes from the people who "govern the skies" . And after reading your second quote, safety can/may be compromised, when it comes to a simple issue of using aircraft lights??? Astounding.

Could he have meant the strobes? Even then it seems unlikely.

 

On long haul flights over the Pacific during the night, I've seen strobe lights get turned off. In fact, both the Nav and Strobes got turned off. Unless we were flying in thick, heavy cloud at 40,000ft, I couldn't see any blinking or red/green lights out the window (they were perfectly visible before and after)

 

(Yes real-world flying) 

Odd in this day and age there is no definitive guidelines as to correct usage of lights

 

Because the basic rules only regulate the use of the POSITION lights, which are pretty much the only single set of mandatory lights on every aircraft. The rest is all recommendations.

 

These are the rules and more importantly, the recommendations, derived from the FAA Aeronautical Information Manual:

 

 

 

4−3−23. Use of Aircraft Lights

 

a. Aircraft position lights are required to be lighted

on aircraft operated on the surface and in flight from

sunset to sunrise. In addition, aircraft equipped with

an anti−collision light system are required to operate

that light system during all types of operations (day

and night). However, during any adverse meteorological

conditions, the pilot−in−command may

determine that the anti−collision lights should be

turned off when their light output would constitute a

hazard to safety (14 CFR Section 91.209).

Supplementary strobe lights should be turned off on

the ground when they adversely affect ground

personnel or other pilots, and in flight when there are

adverse reflection from clouds.

 

b. An aircraft anti−collision light system can use

one or more rotating beacons and/or strobe lights, be

colored either red or white, and have different (higher

than minimum) intensities when compared to other

aircraft. Many aircraft have both a rotating beacon

and a strobe light system.

 

c. The FAA has a voluntary pilot safety program,

Operation Lights On, to enhance the see−and−avoid

concept. Pilots are encouraged to turn on their landing

lights during takeoff; i.e., either after takeoff

clearance has been received or when beginning

takeoff roll. Pilots are further encouraged to turn on

their landing lights when operating below

10,000 feet, day or night, especially when operating

within 10 miles of any airport, or in conditions of

reduced visibility and in areas where flocks of birds

may be expected, i.e., coastal areas, lake areas,

around refuse dumps, etc. Although turning on

aircraft lights does enhance the see−and−avoid

concept, pilots should not become complacent about

keeping a sharp lookout for other aircraft. Not all

aircraft are equipped with lights and some pilots may

not have their lights turned on. Aircraft manufacturer’s

recommendations for operation of landing lights

and electrical systems should be observed.

 

d. Prop and jet blast forces generated by large

aircraft have overturned or damaged several smaller

aircraft taxiing behind them. To avoid similar results,

and in the interest of preventing upsets and injuries to

ground personnel from such forces, the FAA

recommends that air carriers and commercial

operators turn on their rotating beacons anytime their

aircraft engines are in operation. General aviation

pilots using rotating beacon equipped aircraft are also

encouraged to participate in this program which is

designed to alert others to the potential hazard. Since

this is a voluntary program, exercise caution and do

not rely solely on the rotating beacon as an indication

that aircraft engines are in operation.

 

e. Prior to commencing taxi, it is recommended to

turn on navigation, position, anti-collision, and logo

lights (if equipped). To signal intent to other pilots,

consider turning on the taxi light when the aircraft is

moving or intending to move on the ground, and

turning it off when stopped or yielding to other

ground traffic. Strobe lights should not be illuminated

during taxi if they will adversely affect the vision of

other pilots or ground personnel.

 

f. At the discretion of the pilot-in-command, all

exterior lights should be illuminated when taxiing on

or across any runway. This increases the conspicuousness

of the aircraft to controllers and other pilots

approaching to land, taxiing, or crossing the runway.

Pilots should comply with any equipment operating

limitations and consider the effects of landing and

strobe lights on other aircraft in their vicinity

 

g. When entering the departure runway for takeoff

or to “line up and wait,” all lights, except for landing

lights, should be illuminated to make the aircraft

conspicuous to ATC and other aircraft on approach.

Landing lights should be turned on when takeoff

clearance is received or when commencing takeoff

roll at an airport without an operating control tower.

 

The only really mandatory set of lights are the NAVIGATION lights.

 

To sum up the REQUIRED:

• Position lights: ON from sunset to sunrise.
• Anti-collision lights, if equipped, ON during all operations
• Strobe lights, if equipped, OFF on the ground

As you see, this list is very short. It just regulates the BARE minimum for ALL aircraft. And might I remind you that the sky is not filled just with 777s, but also shared with light airplanes that private people built in their garages...

 

Most "rules" that many flightsimmers invent are in fact not rules, just "recommendations".

 

Note how "anti-collision" and "strobe" are not necessarily the same. The strobe lights are a type of "anti-collision" lights.

Note how "navigation" and "position" are not necessarily the same. Apparently, NAV lights are theoretically just the green and red lights on the wingtips. If you add white lights to the trailing edges of the wingtips and horizontal tailplane, you get "position" lights, but I'm not really sure about this and would like confirmation.

 

The RECOMMENDATIONS:

• LANDING lights ON during take-off and in flight and below 10.000 feet.
• ROTATING BEACON lights ON when engines are running
• Before taxi, turn NAV, POS, ANTI-COL, LOGO (if equipped) ON.
• TAXI light ON when the aircraft is moving or about to move on the ground. OFF when yielding
• ALL LIGHS ON (a.k.a. Full Christmas Tree) when crossing or taxiing on runways
• When "line up and wait": ALL LIGHTS ON except for LANDING lights
• When "cleared for take-off": ALL LIGHTS ON

 

I personally prefer more lights on than less. I leave as many lights on as I can.

Also in the sim sometimes I will turn the lights on before taxiing into the active runway to be able to perform a rolling taxe-off and not having to grab onto the overhead to set the lights. In real life you would have a nice Pilot Monitoring who'll do it for you.

 

 

Really interests me this "what lights to use and when" issue. See in cockpit vids the landing lights are flipped on on finals, yet the,  below 10,000 foot rule ???? It's not definitive enough in my eyes from the people who "govern the skies"

 

But why does it need to be more definitive?

 

There are definitive rules about lights that need to be displayed at night, and there are also rules about displaying lights that show the engines are running. The SERA section that I linked above explains it in full in legalese, but it boils down in plain language to:

 

- You must have the beacon lights on any time the engines are running, day or night

- You must have the strobe lights at all times in flight, day or night

 

Otherwise, during the day there is little benefit to displaying nav and other position lights -- they are not bright enough to stand out at any distance for collision avoidance, and the intention, amongst other things is to enable someone moving around the airfield (or in the air) to determine the extremities of the aircraft structure. In the air, during the day you'll almost certainly see the aeroplane before you see a weedy little nav light.

 

At night, of course, the game changes and lights are essential for "see and avoid", which is why the display of lights at night is much more heavily regulated.

 

If you were driving your car during the day, would there be any benefit to turning your headlights on on a glorious sunny day? Would it make any difference to your ability to see oncoming traffic? Probably not. But you might find you're spending more money on headlamp bulbs.

 

It's neither possible nor practical to write a regulation for everything. That's where the concept of airmanship comes in: to use the car analogy, if it were pouring down with rain, misty and the visibility was generally poor you might decide to turn your headlights on, even though the law doesn't require you to do so.

 

In the same way, airlines (and airline chief pilots) look at the regulations -- what they have to do -- and then look at what they think is sensible, good airmanship, and they may elect to write some of this in to their manuals. If they do, then if you're flying for them then you are required to abide by it (unless it is worded in a way that leaves it up to your discretion) -- ultimately, it's their aeroplane and they decide how they want it operated (just as if you were lending/hiring out your car, you might place some conditions on how it's driven). Thus, they may be prescriptive about how the lights are used outside of what is required by the regulations or they may not. As I mentioned, what you do with the lights during the day is largely meaningless anyway because they're just not going to be very visible.

 

With this in mind, there is no law, at least in Europe, requiring landing lights to be switched on below 10,000ft, but it is generally considered good practice and airmanship to do so to make the aircraft more visible to both other aircraft (particularly VFR aircraft that may not be talking to ATC and are operating under see-and-avoid) and to birds. With this in mind, some airlines may require they are on below 10,000ft, some may suggest they are on below 10,000ft and some may leave it entirely up to the pilot. It may be type specific and it's also worth noting that on some types with two sets of landing lights, one set may be left until final to use as a reminder that landing clearance has (or has not) been received (or take-off clearance). Some types have retractable landing lights which are noisy in the cabin (and thus pilots/airlines may prefer to get them off/retracted sooner rather than later for passenger comfort reasons).

 

However, all of that said, as I say, airmanship dictates that there are some occasions where you might want to make your aircraft particularly conspicuous -- a part of the sky where ATC (and radar) services are limited, of questionable quality etc is one example, but there may be others. In the example I quoted, it's worth mentioning that the lights were not the only reason for disaster being averted -- it was more to do with the crews' situational awareness from listening on frequency to the transmissions being directed to the other aircraft around them and realising that they were on the same airway as another flight coming the other way that had been cleared to the same level, and also from their use of the IATA In-flight Broadcast Procedure in force over that part of the world. However, by displaying all available lights they were also able to visually identify (at night) the other aircraft after having co-ordinated an avoidance manoeuvre.

Because the basic rules only regulate the use of the POSITION lights, which are pretty much the only single set of mandatory lights on every aircraft. The rest is all recommendations.

 

These are the rules and more importantly, the recommendations, derived from the FAA Aeronautical Information Manual:

 

 

 

 

The only really mandatory set of lights are the NAVIGATION lights.

 

To sum up the REQUIRED:

 

• Position lights: ON from sunset to sunrise.
• Anti-collision lights, if equipped, ON during all operations
• Strobe lights, if equipped, OFF on the ground

As you see, this list is very short. It just regulates the BARE minimum for ALL aircraft. And might I remind you that the sky is not filled just with 777s, but also shared with light airplanes that private people built in their garages...

 

Most "rules" that many flightsimmers invent are in fact not rules, just "recommendations".

 

Note how "anti-collision" and "strobe" are not necessarily the same. The strobe lights are a type of "anti-collision" lights.

Note how "navigation" and "position" are not necessarily the same. Apparently, NAV lights are theoretically just the green and red lights on the wingtips. If you add white lights to the trailing edges of the wingtips and horizontal tailplane, you get "position" lights, but I'm not really sure about this and would like confirmation.

 

The RECOMMENDATIONS:

• LANDING lights ON during take-off and in flight and below 10.000 feet.
• ROTATING BEACON lights ON when engines are running
• Before taxi, turn NAV, POS, ANTI-COL, LOGO (if equipped) ON.
• TAXI light ON when the aircraft is moving or about to move on the ground. OFF when yielding
• ALL LIGHS ON (a.k.a. Full Christmas Tree) when crossing or taxiing on runways
• When "line up and wait": ALL LIGHTS ON except for LANDING lights
• When "cleared for take-off": ALL LIGHTS ON

 

I personally prefer more lights on than less. I leave as many lights on as I can.

Also in the sim sometimes I will turn the lights on before taxiing into the active runway to be able to perform a rolling taxe-off and not having to grab onto the overhead to set the lights. In real life you would have a nice Pilot Monitoring who'll do it for you.

 

Navigation lights include the red and green AND the single white light on the tail. Otherwise you would have no frame of reference in terms of the aircrafts relative angle towards your own. There are diagrams readily available on the internet that explain this more visually. The same applies to boating.

Navigation lights include the red and green AND the single white light on the tail. Otherwise you would have no frame of reference in terms of the aircrafts relative angle towards your own. There are diagrams readily available on the internet that explain this more visually. The same applies to boating.

 

So what's the difference between NAVIGATION and POSITION lights? It's not clear to me.

So what's the difference between NAVIGATION and POSITION lights? It's not clear to me.

 

Synonyms.

 

EDIT: So, no difference.

Synonyms.

 

EDIT: So, no difference.

 

Thanks. I thought so.

 

Why does the FAA mention, in paragraph e, "navigation and position", as if they were different things? That's inducing confusion.

This is one of the best topics this forum has had in a long time, certainly more intresting to read than a "whats next" or "when will it be released?"

Its something i had not even considered, as far as i was concerned (UK airline/airport experience from 2000-2008)  it was; If the batteries are on, the nav lights are on, when doors are shut and your ready to push get the beacon goes on, and when your live on the runway your strobes are on.

I mean exactly how much fuel are we talking about here for saving? its cant be that much can it???

​Liam Reynolds