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Thomasso

If I manage to master high-end add-on planes, would I be able to fly them in real world?

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All the training in the world will not suffice when, as in the San Francisco Accident, the "trained" get "outside the envolope or get behind" in critical phase and run out of time...to recover that is. :nea:


Best Regards,

Ron Hamilton ASEL

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As much as it is naive to assume that anyone who masters a high-end addon could pull off a 'successful' return-to-ground exercise, it is also equally naive to think that no-one could do it.

 

No need to introduce arguments about 'how complex a wing is to master' or 'how out of your depth you'll be in out of envelope' scenarios. We all understand that flying is complex and you need to be highly trained. No-one is suggesting that any numbskull can do what a highly trained pilot can do on a complex airliner. The scenario stated is assuming an incapacitated pilot(s) but also assumes a happy and stable aeroplane in CAVOk weather.  Well, if it wasnt assumed before it is now.

 

Let's be honest, we now have 26 year old Captains and 19 year old first officers at Easyjet... So one must introduce the question - how hard can it be if you understand basic principles.

 

The catalyst here is going to be the intellectual astuteness and character of the individual - assuming a very thorough knowledge of a PMDG type simulation. Let's say an engineering student, with a quietly confident personality who also copes well under pressure was placed in the hypothetical situation. With the aircraft in stable cruise, STAR and Runway already programmed into the FMS, could the person manage an automated decsent (with intervenes if required) and set the aircraft up on apporoach, disconnect at 1000' agl and land? I don';t see any reason why not.

 

Could any one of the broad cross section of PMDG users with equal simming time do the same thing. I'd say abolutely not. From the vast numbers of flightsimmers I have come acoss over the years, I'm not that hopeful

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Let's be honest, we now have 26 year old Captains and 19 year old first officers at Easyjet... So one must introduce the question - how hard can it be if you understand basic principles.

Er, 19 year old FO's who hold the required licences and recency. That's not just any old 19 year old they pull off out of the gutter at closing time and hope they can do it, they do the 18 months or so of training, checking, examinations and tests... and pass. So it is quite hard, even if you understand basic principles but that's what the training is for.

 

And if you're an FO at 19 you've had 7 years experience flying the aircraft when you're a Capt at 26, sounds quite reasonable to me. Many airlines have a shorter time to command than that (and some quite a bit longer). It really doesn't matter how old you are, if you've done the training and passed the tests and convinced an airline to hire you, you are perfectly capable to operate. That doesn't make it easy, there are enough 30 or 40 year olds failing exams/flying tests to attest to that.

 

Sat at your desk at home flying the NGX really is nothing like operating a real 738, just because you have mastered the NGX doesn't mean you have mastered the operation of a real 738, it really is quite hard (at times and especially when you're learning it). The sim is very good for familiarisation of switch location and systems knowledge (and I use it for practising panel flows etc) but the actual flying and operation is nothing like real life.

 

The catalyst here is going to be the intellectual astuteness and character of the individual - assuming a very thorough knowledge of a PMDG type simulation. Let's say an engineering student, with a quietly confident personality who also copes well under pressure was placed in the hypothetical situation. With the aircraft in stable cruise, STAR and Runway already programmed into the FMS, could the person manage an automated decsent (with intervenes if required) and set the aircraft up on apporoach, disconnect at 1000' agl and land? I don';t see any reason why not.

 

Could any one of the broad cross section of PMDG users with equal simming time do the same thing. I'd say abolutely not. From the vast numbers of flightsimmers I have come acoss over the years, I'm not that hopeful

I'm trying to stay out of this but I can't quite help myself so I'm going to direct the right honourable gentleman to my initial reply :

 

http://www.avsim.com/topic/492839-if-i-manage-to-master-high-end-add-on-planes-would-i-be-able-to-fly-them-in-real-world/page-15#entry3485850

 

I put quite a bit of thought into it and I think it covers everything you have said.

 

Hope this helps,

 

Ian

 

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Er, 19 year old FO's who hold the required licences and recency. That's not just any old 19 year old they pull off out of the gutter at closing time and hope they can do it, they do the 18 months or so of training, checking, examinations and tests... and pass. So it is quite hard, even if you understand basic principles but that's what the training is for.
 
And if you're an FO at 19 you've had 7 years experience flying the aircraft when you're a Capt at 26,

 

With no disrespect meant to them. I completly get what it takes to get to where they are and I know that the EJ scheme is no cake walk.  

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If the AF447 pilot in the right seat had conducted stall recovery as it's taught in even a Cessna 172, he wouldn't have killed everyone on the aircraft. There's no great systems knowledge required for that.

 

 

He could only conduct stall recovery if he firstly identified the fact that he was indeed stalled. That, in a nutshell, is why AF447 crashed.

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How about the British guy who's pilot died of a heart attack in flight. He claimed he never flew prior to that time. They talked him in and he landed safely and walked away. Granted it was only a Cessna 150. I'm sure he had no concept of ILS approaches or inst, flying. He learned the quick way, like we used to teach guy's in the NAVY how to swim, throw em in the pool! 90% of them learned promptly how to swim. Month's latter we showed them how to bob. It was a way to survive in the water with your ankles, and hands tied behind your back, and then get tossed into the pool.

Some people panic, some figure it out, time allowing!

 

Baldy

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This is a good reason why passengers be they simmers or otherwise are not invited to fly real aeroplanes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iI0Sw4eS1TE

funny, basically if you think this thread isn't long enough, go look in the comments of that video and read a whole bunch more!

 

some youtube guy says we use the autopilot 100% and anyone could do it. dang, better give him ma job!

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nealmac, on 16 Oct 2016 - 12:00 AM, said:

I thought she did ok.

Only because it was on autoland!

 

 

That doesn't really support your argument then.  If she did 'okay', then in the hypothetical scenario, that was a winning outcome (autoland or not) and is therefore good enough reason to get anyone with some knowledge to achieve a desired outcome.  It  looked like she was a teenager.

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Only because it was on autoland!

Well yeah, but in the hypothetical situation of both pilots on a real flight being incapacitated in a perfectly working plane, she could have saved the plane. Obviously you'd have to factor in other things such as on a real flight she would most likely panic. But if a simmer that knows how the Airbus flies took the controls in such a situation, there's a very high chance that he or she could get the plane safely on the ground.

 

That doesn't really support your argument then.  If she did 'okay', then in the hypothetical scenario, that was a winning outcome (autoland or not) and is therefore good enough reason to get anyone with some knowledge to achieve a desired outcome.  It  looked like she was a teenager.

I don't really follow you. She got the "simulated" plane on the ground, having not only never been on a flight deck before, but it also looks like she never flew in a computer sim before. So surely it stands to reason that a computer sim "pilot" with experience in using autoland on an equivalent aircraft would have an even better chance of getting it on the ground in 1 piece? Especially if they were being helped by someone over the radio.

 

Yes, countless rules would probably be violated but that's not what we're taking about. We're not talking about learning how to operate the aircraft down to a fully professional level. We're taking about saving the plane and passengers, and being a hero. And to me this would be very possible.


Best regards,

 

Neal McCullough

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Sorry Neal. Very "possible" doesn't quantify the chances of a succesful, ie "everyone lives" outcome. If the "talk downer" isn't present or she runs "out of time", she and the others perish.


Best Regards,

Ron Hamilton ASEL

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I personally believe it would be possible for a seasoned NGX sim pilot to take the control of a 737 with two incapacitated pilots and successfully set up for a CATIII Autoland. However, it definitely would not be possible for any sim pilot to successfully hand fly and land an airliner. I don't think there is anything that would stop someone with the proper systems knowledge from setting up an aircraft to basically fly itself. 

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Fantasies do exist and everyones opinion as well.

Mine is that simmers don't survive or are badly injured in the original scenario presented... :wink:


Best Regards,

Ron Hamilton ASEL

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