FromTheFlightDeck_Sim

They said it couldn't be done

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Now before you reply saying it's only a motion simulator, I'd like to make the point that FSX, P3D pilots can fly with real motion after logging some hours on good aircraft addons (PMDG and the like). I am not saying they are professional, talented pilots, but they could take over as pilot if and emergency (knock on wood) were to happen midflight.

Watch the video below.

I'd also like to say that the person who landed the plane in the video has used the PMDG 737 and trained himself on it. He is not a first time FSX flyer. He knows what to do, and he only mentions that he needs to add more stick force, because hey, Saitek and real aircraft yokes aren't the same.

 

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You are forgetting the human factor! Flying a simulator there is no fear of death.  How do you know you wouldn't be overwhelmed with fear, anxiety etc... if you ended up in a real world situation? I say you are more likely to kill every.  

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Here's 27 pages of discussion on this very topic...

Let's not write another 27 pages here...

Not being dismissive or rude but this subject comes up a lot and a youtube video of one person (we don't know) flying another sim, interesting as it is, isn't going to change anything.

ATB

Ian

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yep  another  one ,  will  go the  same  way  as  the other  threads  on this  topic

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Ok, its not a crime to discuss.

I wouldn't disagree in principle. Of course someone who is very into the systems and sees the sim as a study sim for sure would have more chances of success than a non simmer. If all that we do on the simulator was totally out of reality, we wouldn't like it after all. We like it because its realistic (as much as it can be).

Now, from there to success is a big IF, when the g-loads, proportions and psychological factors come seriously into play in a real aircraft. Especially the last one can take out any knowledge you have attained.

To my mind comes a simple example. Someone gets a driver license examination after having spent hours behind the same real car and during the exam he/she can get tremendously anxious making mistakes. Now, I can imagine this anxiety some magnitudes greater in the scenario you describe, and thats enough to ruin everything.But certainly more chances than any non pilot, I wouldn't argue about that.

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Whenever this discussion comes up, I'm always amused at the apparent belief that ATP pilots are trained to fly using actual aircraft.  That just isn't true.  ATP pilots learn on simulators.

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Hi Folks,

Yeah - found that pretty amazing - get checked out in a sim on Friday - Monday morning show up for work sitting in the real seat...

Regards,
Scott

 

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By the time someone earns their ATP they have over a thousand hours of actual airplane experience and generally have taken a few certificate flight examinations in a real airplane. Sure a 737 pilot gets typed in a simulator, but then spends some amount of time under a Check Captain in a real airplane before being allowed to fly the line. Most airlines will then require a new guy to sit in the right seat for many years under the tutelage of experienced Captains. 

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Would an armchair pilot trained only on a PC sim be able to land safely a Level D simulator? Probably yes, I have done it many times, never crashed and actually found it pretty easy. Once, I also avoided an aircraft that was crossing my path (a nice gift from the instructor).

Would it be the same with the real thing? Not so easy: emotions are a part of us and have a huge influence on our judgements and performances: in a sim you can only hurt your ego; in a real airplane it's a different matter.

Ask a surgeon about the first time he/she had to use a scalpel for real. In that case, you have had a long profesional training, you have been there many times watching, and there are expert colleagues around you who can assist, advise, and help you if needed. You are risking the patient's life, not yours or that of 200 people. But I bet your legs are shaking just the same. 

Now imagine trying to land a full 737 all alone.

Andrea

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I'm a master in Real Racing 3. I constantly get lap times around Le Mans of 02:40 mins, nearly 1 min better than the real LMP1 cars.

I think that if Sebastien Buemi felt ill before the 24h of Le Mans, I could be handy and help Toyota win the race. After all, I know how to take every corner perfectly.

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Now, like I said, I never mentioned that desktop-FS pilots are not professional, talented pilots, but they could speed "the learning process" up when they familiarize themselves with flight deck systems. 

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6 hours ago, petkez said:

You are forgetting the human factor! Flying a simulator there is no fear of death.  How do you know you wouldn't be overwhelmed with fear, anxiety etc... if you ended up in a real world situation? I say you are more likely to kill every.  

Just remember, you never know. Some people are different. Now I'm not disagreeing with you, it could happen. But let's not take it too seriously (like the movie Sully) and just say that FS pilots can land full motion sims, maybe even real aircraft with the right amount of training.

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They could find their way in the cockpit, sure. But the tri dimensionality of it all, coupled with the sense of speed (which you don't get while simming), the little chops and movement, the sound, the rush and the "what's it doing now?" lack of general awareness is just too much to handle.

Try to land a Piper Tomahawk for real, in a confined space, in a 5kt headwind. It's super easy in the sim, a completely different feeling in the real thing.

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2 minutes ago, Guevorkyan said:

They could find their way in the cockpit, sure. But the tri dimensionality of it all, coupled with the sense of speed (which you don't get while simming), the little chops and movement, the sound, the rush and the "what's it doing now?" lack of general awareness is just too much to handle.

Try to land a Piper Tomahawk for real, in a confined space, in a 5kt headwind. It's super easy in the sim, a completely different feeling in the real thing.

You're making a good point to some cocky flight sim pilots who claim that they are "A380 certified."

As a pilot you are multitasking moment by moment. Correct.

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As a matter of fact, we had an FO who was an ACE in flight simulators (both PCs and Level-B types), and had the licences to fly and all, but he had a lack of general airmanship and stick-and-rudder skills. He was an excellent IFR pilot en-route, but landing was not really his thing.

There are a lot of things to consider. Real life private pilots or even small turboprop commercial pilots might have problems landing a 70 ton jet. Remember that when you are in the air, the rails are no longer there and you aer just another particle flying through a body of air.

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5 hours ago, KenG said:

By the time someone earns their ATP they have over a thousand hours of actual airplane experience and generally have taken a few certificate flight examinations in a real airplane. Sure a 737 pilot gets typed in a simulator, but then spends some amount of time under a Check Captain in a real airplane before being allowed to fly the line. Most airlines will then require a new guy to sit in the right seat for many years under the tutelage of experienced Captains. 

 

Airline pilots can get typed having never stepped onboard a real one... try getting your PPL without flying a real aircraft.

The point is, don't discount actual simulator time and training... many real world pilots start exactly there and get a job flying real aircraft after having only flown them in a simulator.

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16 minutes ago, WarpD said:

 

Airline pilots can get typed having never stepped onboard a real one...

That's only valid for very experienced high time ATPs!

Low time pilots who have 'only' time in GA twins, biz jets etc. have to fly a lot of traffic circuits in the real plane before they start flying under supervision with passengers.

High time ATPs sometimes get away with a type rating on a Level-D sim without doing practise circuits in the real one before flying under supervision. 

However that's only due to cost consideration and I can assure you that no pilot likes the sim-flying only way of getting a type rating. 

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Correct, they do get typed in a sim. But that's the very final part of a training program for the given type, lot's of classroom hours before stepping in a Level-D sim (and a lot of hours there as well).

But, before getting to the classroom, they would have flown hundreds and thousands of real flying hours and would know the physics involved in the process. The desktop sim can perfectly aid in finding the switches and generally maintain a level flight. A more sofisticated sim can further add dimension of reality and awareness.

The same can be said of Formula 1 sims (real ones), sailing sims, trains, etc. 

A real pilot might be able to land it in one piece, automation will certainly help a lot if it is FBW. But also can add a lot of workload if you are not mentally ahead of the airplane. Being ahead of the airplane is a must, and that comes with experience in the type. Being behing the curve is something no pilot want to be in, very dangerous and adds an inmense amount of urgency to the situation. That is what is going to happen if you have not experienced a lot of real flying (and lately if I'm allowed to add - proficiency is as important as anything).

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1 hour ago, WarpD said:

 

Airline pilots can get typed having never stepped onboard a real one... try getting your PPL without flying a real aircraft.

The point is, don't discount actual simulator time and training... many real world pilots start exactly there and get a job flying real aircraft after having only flown them in a simulator.

 

I'm typing this from my phone so please excuse my spelling errors due to dumb autocorrect.

I am very sprry to say this but you are sorely mistaken  if you think that it's this simple for someone to go straight from zero to hero only flying a level-d sum.

 

AS stated before, all ATPs have had countless hours of experience in a real airplane flying through real air.

They know the true relationship between pitch and power, they instinctively know what an airplane will do when it encounters a gust of wind and what to do to counteract said gust.

They have the ability to "feel" an airplane flying through the air.

Sim pilots don't and wouldn't have these abilities. If they have learned it from FS, it's very rudimentary and most liekyl will not transfer over to a real jet. They would in a Cessna or a piper but just barely.  They are used to flying the simulator. That's why it's so easy for low time.or zero time pilots to step into level-d Sims and show off.

II had 40 hrs all in Cessna 172s and jumped into a e145 sim and flew the heck out of it. The instructor was thoroughly amazed and impressed.

However, I could never do that in real life.

The level-d Sims are honestly a set it and forget it kind of thing. It's so scientific that if you know what power setting you need for a stabilized approach, you can literally set an N1 setting and watch it not lose or gain speed at all as long as you know what pitch attitude to fly at. The descent path won't change either.

This situation rarely if ever happens in real life. A power setting becomes a suggestion and it's up to the pilot to know how to change thrust and attitude to achieve a stabilized approach.

There is a reason why pilots go through initial operating experience on airplanes they just get typed in with a check airman. The airplanes themselves still differ from their sum counterparts. Sims nowadays, are much better at simulating flight but they aren't perfect.

When an ATP rated pilot steps into the sum, they are merely getting used to how the airplane flies. They aren't learning what 150 kias looks like on approach. They aren't learning how a jet flies. They know these things instinctively.

I'll go a step further, pilots who are learning their first jet, when they step into the sim, they already have an idea of what to expect, they may only need to get used to a faster approach and more power from the engines.

They most likely already have the ability to foresee things before they happen.

 

All this is coming from growing up on FS, getting in a sim at 40 hrs, then eventually getting a type rating in a jet at 1500 hrs and only having experience in light multi engine pistons.

TThings were even more different once getting into the real jet. The sum only really taught me how to have an idea of what should happens nd what things should look like. Things were definitely different once in the real airplane.

 

 

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Ah, this old chestnut. :)

A colleague at work recently asked me the old "so if the pilots are incapacitated.... etc." question. To which I answered, if the aeroplane and autopilot are behaving themselves? Then yes, I said I could help..any of us simmers could help.. If systems start going wrong?... nope no chance. Could I land it? Yes... ONCE! LOL  nope. I said it would get very messy even given the knowledge of what should happen when landing an airliner.

We all have an idea, we have a clue about the numbers etc. but for real, under lots of stress...

Had to laugh though, he still said he'd feel safer with me in the same plane than his mates! :happy:

Anyhow not going to happen seeing as the crew are locked in behind that bulletproof door these days..

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9 minutes ago, HighBypass said:

Anyhow not going to happen seeing as the crew are locked in behind that bulletproof door these days..

^^^^ This. Everything else is a moot point!

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16 hours ago, ahsmatt7 said:

I am very sprry to say this but you are sorely mistaken  if you think that it's this simple for someone to go straight from zero to hero only flying a level-d sum.

2

I don't think that is what Ed was saying at all. More of adding to the conversation based on his experience working with a hardware producer for BATD and AATDs. 

I spend my life in the back end of Level D FFS as a professional instructor (Level C and D FFS are the only devices certified to accomplish all tasks according to the ATP PTS.) I am also a trained UPRT instructor fully compliant with ICAO doc 10011, which means I have both on aircraft and simulator training and fully understand the differences and limitations of simulator training. This is an important distinction as many instructors are ignorant to the limitations of FFS and even teach and perform maneuvers that are part of the training syllabi but are not properly modeled. This, of course, leads to negative training in which a pilot under instruction comes away with an inappropriate understanding of how an airplane will react under certain aerodynamic situations.  

 If this is happening in the high-end simulation business what real chance do you think a self-study person has who's only experience is a hobby level desktop simulation? This is the nuance of simulated flight that amateurs just do not get. How many times have I had the discussion with a hobby level guy on stalls. Neither FSX or P3D properly simulate accelerated stalls and thus the concept of g loading the airplane which increases stall speed is completely lost on them. You take your PMDG 737 expert and put him into a perfect scenario, CAVOK and calm winds and he lands a 737 FFS. The crowd who wants to believe that FSX/P3D is truly a high-end training device point to this as a success. Yes, he was successful under a very controlled environment. But, the bottom line is he does not have the training or experience. In reality, he may still be lucky or if he gets a little slow and a wing drops or the rate of descent increases he may inappropriately apply incorrect control movement that exasperates the situation. Never in his desktop simulation life has the airplane acted like it will act in the real world and he has a boat load of negative training to reinforce his control inputs.

 I know many desktop simulation guys who are really great people and good guys (and gals) who really want to make their experience as real as possible given the limitations of the software. However, there is a reason that the FAA still requires actual aircraft experience for all levels of certification. The engineers who design these simulation devices are fully aware of the limitations inherent with simulated flight and the many aerodynamic factors that are not modeled. Pushing pixels is just that pushing pixels, sure we can log FTD time, but it is not flight time.

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Think we are all missing the point. Sure, nothing at all can beat experience and knowing the external forces out there in an uncontrolled environment over many many years no matter your knowledge of the systems and where everything is in the cockpit. However we are talking about a once in  a multi million possibility that if the crew was incapacitated for whatever bizarre reason, and there was absolutely no one else on the plane as a pilot but you alone have some knowledge, its still the best chance for everyone to live. Perhaps not a very good one, but its better than nothing at all.  Would we be able to handle the anxiety, emotions, and the surprises? Who knows. That more of an individual thing based on someones character.  But dont forget, theres also adrenaline and the will to live to bring that aircraft down somehow someway with the experience we have in a simulator. No one can truly say what would really happen because I dont think its actually happened IRL nor is it likely to happen. But fear or fight is what will determine the will to survive. 

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4 hours ago, HighTowers said:

Think we are all missing the point. Sure, nothing at all can beat experience and knowing the external forces out there in an uncontrolled environment over many many years no matter your knowledge of the systems and where everything is in the cockpit. However we are talking about a once in  a multi million possibility that if the crew was incapacitated for whatever bizarre reason, and there was absolutely no one else on the plane as a pilot but you alone have some knowledge, its still the best chance for everyone to live. Perhaps not a very good one, but its better than nothing at all.  Would we be able to handle the anxiety, emotions, and the surprises? Who knows. That more of an individual thing based on someones character.  But dont forget, theres also adrenaline and the will to live to bring that aircraft down somehow someway with the experience we have in a simulator. No one can truly say what would really happen because I dont think its actually happened IRL nor is it likely to happen. But fear or fight is what will determine the will to survive. 

I disagree with you. No matter how determined a person is on landing an airplane and saving the day, if they don't have the skill set to do it, they probably won't get it done.

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1 hour ago, ahsmatt7 said:

I disagree with you. No matter how determined a person is on landing an airplane and saving the day, if they don't have the skill set to do it, they probably won't get it done.

Maybe your right. But surely an armchair pilot stands a slightly better chance than someone who knows absolutely nothing?

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