thepilot

Discussion of ATC

Recommended Posts

I hope they rework the ATC engine. It dates back to FS9 basically! Everything needs to be reworked, starting from ATIS and clearances right down to such things as local dialects...

Share this post


Link to post
Help AVSIM continue to serve you!
Please donate today!

On 5/1/2017 at 0:36 PM, thepilot said:

I hope they rework the ATC engine. It dates back to FS9 basically! Everything needs to be reworked, starting from ATIS and clearances right down to such things as local dialects...

Absolutely.  For a training platform that part is sorely lacking, and would be compelling enough to upgrade for if they did a decent rewrite of it.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post

I still believe that they'll add updated navaid databases ** AND ** sloped airport taxi / parking / rws....

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post

Are there any statements from LM regarding the ATC engine?

Share this post


Link to post
On 1.5.2017 at 9:36 PM, thepilot said:

I hope they rework the ATC engine. It dates back to FS9 basically! Everything needs to be reworked, starting from ATIS and clearances right down to such things as local dialects...

I hope they don't waste their development time with things like that. To be honest, ATC is and should always be a field for 3rd party devs.

However I would be excited about a complete rewrite of the AI traffic handling engine, or at least more controls/possibilities for developers.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, fly_edds said:

To be honest, ATC is and should always be a field for 3rd party devs.

They have not delivered so far (except for EditVoicepack). Maybe because of technical limitations that would have to be adressed, too.

I think ATC is such a crucial part of IFR flying that it may well be an inhouse development. Just think how great it would be to have proper clearances, taxi instructions, transition altitudes, SIDs/STARs, etc. An a fleet of AI aircraft that actually acts intelligently.

 

 

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
On 4-5-2017 at 0:32 AM, thepilot said:

They have not delivered so far (except for EditVoicepack). Maybe because of technical limitations that would have to be adressed, too.

I think ATC is such a crucial part of IFR flying that it may well be an inhouse development. Just think how great it would be to have proper clearances, taxi instructions, transition altitudes, SIDs/STARs, etc. An a fleet of AI aircraft that actually acts intelligently.

 

 

The limiting factor for all ATC addon developers has always been the extremely limited possibilities to control the AI traffic. MS never anticipated on ATC addons and therefore did not develop an SDK for ATC.

Both the developers from ProATC as well as Radar Contacted repeatedly stated they have/had to use all kinds of hacks and workaround to at least have some limited interaction with the AI traffic.

So if LM could provide some nice openings in the ATC / AI traffic engine for 3rd party developers to make advantage of, I would welcome that very much.

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post

That's because the sim controls both ATC and AI aircraft. All the addon ATC  apps except for one (VOXATC) just control ATC. Read any of the VOXATC  7 beta threads and one quickly sees how difficult  a task that is to do both in unison.

I've been flying  pretty much exclusively  with XP11 for the past few months and I really miss even the "weak" default ATC  and AI aircraft in FSX.

Share this post


Link to post
On 5/3/2017 at 11:32 PM, thepilot said:

Just think how great it would be to have proper clearances, taxi instructions, transition altitudes, SIDs/STARs, etc. An a fleet of AI aircraft that actually acts intelligently

Im still testing this but using Voxatc v7beta with up to date navdata and fsaerodata with the same airac cycle, Ive been getting quite accurate altitude clearamces through Vox.  The key is the combined use of vox, fmc navdata (vox uses levelD) and updated SIDS/STARS/airways/navaids etc etc.  (And no, since vox is the only atc addon to control AI, Herve Sors navaid updates dont uldate all the data needed in my opinion.)

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
13 hours ago, kevinfirth said:

Im still testing this but using Voxatc v7beta with up to date navdata and fsaerodata with the same airac cycle, Ive been getting quite accurate altitude clearamces through Vox.  The key is the combined use of vox, fmc navdata (vox uses levelD) and updated SIDS/STARS/airways/navaids etc etc.  (And no, since vox is the only atc addon to control AI, Herve Sors navaid updates dont uldate all the data needed in my opinion.)

I wish more people would move to ATC environments like VATSIM.  It makes such a monumental difference to the overall experience which even the highest degree of canned ATC could never provide.  Real time flying with real people cannot be beaten.  We just need more people to do it.  Then all of this AI traffic and botched ATC frustration will disappear.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
8 minutes ago, ErichB said:

I wish more people would move to ATC environments like VATSIM.  It makes such a monumental difference to the overall experience which even the highest degree of canned ATC could never provide.  Real time flying with real people cannot be beaten.  We just need more people to do it.  Then all of this AI traffic and botched ATC frustration will disappear.

Ive flown with vatsim and it can be great, its achilles heel is the lack of controllers in non huge hub airfields, and even where there is some level of control it rarely covers all freqs :(

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
4 minutes ago, kevinfirth said:

Ive flown with vatsim and it can be great, its achilles heel is the lack of controllers in non huge hub airfields, and even where there is some level of control it rarely covers all freqs :(

Can't disagree there Kevin.  Definitely needs more controllers - which is why I'm considering doing ATC myself

Share this post


Link to post
17 minutes ago, ErichB said:

I wish more people would move to ATC environments like VATSIM.  It makes such a monumental difference to the overall experience which even the highest degree of canned ATC could never provide.  Real time flying with real people cannot be beaten.  We just need more people to do it.  Then all of this AI traffic and botched ATC frustration will disappear.

Couldn't agree more. 

4 minutes ago, kevinfirth said:

Ive flown with vatsim and it can be great, its achilles heel is the lack of controllers in non huge hub airfields, and even where there is some level of control it rarely covers all freqs :(

I guess if there was lots of more online traffic that would also inspire more people to act as ATC so I think it's really a win-win situation - the more pilots the more ATC and vice versa.

Share this post


Link to post

Let me also add that switching from offline to online flying has without doubt been the biggest and most rewarding thing I did since I started simming where I've learnt lots of things!

So...for anyone with a true interest in aviation and how to operate in the same way as you would IRL I highly recommend taking your simming experience online. You'll learn lots of new things and at the same time have a much more alive and fun environment to fly in.

Share this post


Link to post
3 hours ago, ErichB said:

I wish more people would move to ATC environments like VATSIM.  It makes such a monumental difference to the overall experience which even the highest degree of canned ATC could never provide.  Real time flying with real people cannot be beaten.  We just need more people to do it.  Then all of this AI traffic and botched ATC frustration will disappear.

I flew Vatsim years ago all the time. For me a couple of problems with Vatsim made it something that I would not do any more:

1. First and foremost, I got tired of confining my flight schedules to the availability of controllers on Vatsim, both location wise and time wise. I usually fly in the morning, and then again in afternoon and possibly early evening. There are no controllers in the US, most of those times except possibly on the weekends. Flying using Unicomm with no other aircraft and controllers within hundreds of miles, is pretty boring

2. Another issue that I had was taking a multi hour flight, having a controller for takeoff and part of the cruise, and then the controller signs off due to another obligation, and you are back on Unicomm again for the arrival. 

Now I use one of a couple of ATC programs I have, and I have ATC from startup and taxi out, to arrival and ground control, just like in the real world, anyplace I want to fly 24/7. 

 

 

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
3 hours ago, WebMaximus said:

Couldn't agree more. 

I guess if there was lots of more online traffic that would also inspire more people to act as ATC so I think it's really a win-win situation - the more pilots the more ATC and vice versa.

I did vatsim S1 and its a thankless task requiring many hours to progress through.  No matter the traffic there will never be suficient controllers online to resource my flying.  I dont want to fly Heathrow etc.

CixVFR, an online GA club I joined do specific events and even provide basic R/T training to be able to control their own club flights.

The reality is we need a variety of tools to deal with the many and varied types of popular and nonpopular flightplans.  Vox has a place at the table because you can fly anywhere anytime without needing anyone else to take part.  

Share this post


Link to post
57 minutes ago, Bobsk8 said:

Now I use one of a couple of ATC programs I have, and I have ATC from startup and taxi out, to arrival and ground control, just like in the real world, anyplace I want to fly 24/7. 

 

While I understand the rationale, there is one thing the canned programmes can't really do and that is use discretion due to changing circumstance.   Additionally, that synthetic (obviously computer generated messaging) is another thing that I just cannot get used to.   For me, I'd rather mix up the controlled and non-controlled environments than deal with code generated ATC and AI on a full length flight.  They are complete immersion killers.     Real world (Vatsim)  ATC keeps you on your toes.  You really do need to consider what you are doing and it forces a discipline which you can simply ignore with PC generated AI and ATC if you just can't be bothered.

Share this post


Link to post
2 minutes ago, ErichB said:

While I understand the rationale, there is one thing the canned programmes can't really do and that is use discretion due to changing circumstance.   Additionally, that synthetic (obviously computer generated messaging) is another thing that I just cannot get used to.   For me, I'd rather mix up the controlled and non-controlled environments than deal with code generated ATC and AI on a full length flight.  They are complete immersion killers.     Real world (Vatsim)  ATC keeps you on your toes.  You really do need to consider what you are doing and it forces a discipline which you can simply ignore with PC generated AI and ATC if you just can't be bothered.

Unicomm just doesn't do anything for me, and that is what I see 90% of the time. . 

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, kevinfirth said:

There reality is we need a variety of tools to deal with the many and varied types of popular and nonpopular flightplans.  Vox has a place at the table because you can fly anywhere anytime without needing anyone else to take part.  

 

If airliner flying is not your thing then your argument makes sense.  I don;t really think that VATSIM is geared up enough for GA style flying.

Share this post


Link to post
3 minutes ago, Bobsk8 said:

Unicomm just doesn't do anything for me, and that is what I see 90% of the time. . 

I mostly fly in europe and the hubs i like flying into and out of, particularly in the western european areas do provide a good deal of coverage.  I also do tend to fly where the ATC is concentrated which is not necessarily a bad thing.  Unfortunately, in its current form, it is a compromise and a game of give-and-take.  But I still prefer it to the other options.

Share this post


Link to post
17 minutes ago, ErichB said:

 

If airliner flying is not your thing then your argument makes sense.  I don;t really think that VATSIM is geared up enough for GA style flying.

Id agree that Vatsim is the best option and if flying heavies between 2 fully controlled airports it would provide the best most realistic option.  The reality is though that outside 'popular' hubs and managed events, it generally fails to come up with the goods. :(

Having said that some of the most fun Ive had online flying is GA in and out of controlled airfields where someone is sitting a Vatsim controlling exam :)  You airliner dudes mostly dont get to deal with much GA messing up your approach I think, mores the pity!

 

Back on track though, I wouldnt be expecting any change whatsoever to ATC in P3D4. Commercial training through P3D will probably all be human interactive comms, kind of their Vatsim :)  Why would LM update a part of the sim they dont use? Its there as a nod towards the ESP roots thats all.  3PD is the only answer...

Share this post


Link to post

Hi Folks,

While I can appreciate the benefits of flying online - most times I prefer just using canned ATC services... I'd certainly like to see the base level ATC improved... Currently - I use default ATC for VFR flights and RC4 for IFR flights - neither of which provides any real traffic separation... Please - please - please fix the default AI calls - "Nxxxx - please expedite climb to xxxx" ad nauseam... I've mapped all the RC4 calls and some of the default ATC calls (work in progress) to "Voice Attack" - which improves the immersion factor a great deal...

For online flying - I would love to see someone come up with making a radio - well - sound like a radio - the crystal clear voices just spoil the immersion for me... I've looked for third party apps but never really found anything suitable... 

Regards,
Scott

Share this post


Link to post
28 minutes ago, scottb613 said:

 

For online flying - I would love to see someone come up with making a radio - well - sound like a radio - the crystal clear voices just spoil the immersion for me... I've looked for third party apps but never really found anything suitable... 

 

Hi Scott

 

The VATSIm VPilot client provides a VHF distortion option in the setting menu which does quite a good job of emulating this.  I also hate the clear skype like sound if i dont use this option - so I always have the distortion  turned on

Share this post


Link to post
On 04/05/2017 at 0:32 AM, thepilot said:

 

I think ATC is such a crucial part of IFR flying that it may well be an inhouse development. Just think how great it would be to have proper clearances, taxi instructions, transition altitudes, SIDs/STARs, etc.

 

 

You mean just like you find in PF3!

Share this post


Link to post
6 hours ago, scottb613 said:

Hi Folks,

 

For online flying - I would love to see someone come up with making a radio - well - sound like a radio - the crystal clear voices just spoil the immersion for me... I've looked for third party apps but never really found anything suitable... 

Regards,
Scott

Have you tried PF3? PF3 does exactly what you are asking for so when you say you haven't found anything suitable you didn't look very far!

Share this post


Link to post

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now