Ending support for older simulator versions?

[anden145 2,285]

Hehe - I know the feeling ... 

[johncott 177]

Nothing mention about good old economics. Just as long as it's economical to make add-ons for FSX, they will make add-ons for FSX.

[Lorby_SI 2,042]

4 hours ago, greggerm said:

There's the potential for 4 different "MSFS-like" SDK's which would need to be built against in this new era...

From the point of view of programmatic addons, that makes 5, not counting FSW. FSX Boxed and FSX SE SimConnect are different as well, and if you want to do it right, you have to compile different versions for them using the correct libraries.

The real problems start when you want to use the current functionality for your addon, but that functionality is not present in the earlier versions. You have to split development into several streams, and you end up with several almost identical versions of the same source code. And you have to write different user manuals for each version, because the feature sets are different. Just imagine how much fun it is to find a bug in there - you don't even know if the same bug exists in all versions, so you have to test them all. If things go really sideways, more time is spent on these purely maintenance related chores than on development itself...

Best regards

[virtuali 4,421]

I would like to make a real world example of what might seem a minor thing, that can have a big impact on the user's experience.

Today, a user reported a problem with microstutters happening at KIAH when switching visuals. So, as usual after users report a problem, I checked and yes, it wasn't entirely smooth as I would like to be but, there wasn't anything special in the scenery that could cause this, but enabling the simconnect diagnostics, I found the stuttering to be happening when we used the official way to ask the camera eyepoint, which is needed by our software for a lot of things, like positional sounds effect, for example (the eyepoint can be assumed to be the listener ears), using a fairly recent Simconnect call that has been added in P3D V3.

Before P3D V3, we used undocumented hacks, since that variable wasn't exposed, so we just read the values directly from RAM.

Of course, accessing the memory using undocumented hacks is messy and dangerous, and would require updating the software each time a new build or hotfix of the simulator comes out to updated the memory pointers which change with every build so, when LM added the official Simconnect call to get the position of the eyepoint, I jumped at the chance to remove one point in the software dependent on undocumented hacks, to make it simpler, safer and more "proper".

However, as evil and possibly dangerous direct memory access is, there's *nothing* FASTER that that!

So, by gaining safety and compatiblity, I lost some speed and, apparently, using the official Simconnect method to retrieve the eyepoint, can cause a bit of stuttering when called 6 times per second, which is not that much, and it's the minimum that is required to support positional sound (the listener position should be ideally updated every frame).

Fortunately, P3D V4 comes to the rescue and now, there's an even better way to get that data, which is both official AND fast, which is the PDK, an API more low-level than Simconnect, which allows direct memory access in a safe and documented way, which has a nice call to get the camera position.

So, it was enough to update the software to this method and, guess what, stutters were gone!

Unfortunately, this method has changed quite a bit between P3D V3 and V4, since the whole API has been greatly revised in V4 and lots of changes were made the way you call it so, if we had to support both versions, it would be very difficult to maintain the software, considering the V4 version does *A LOT* more and better.

And that's just one, small, example of why, supporting older sims is becoming more and more like a burden, which also hampers our ability, as developers, of doing BETTER things or just doing the same things we always did, but in a better way.

[GHarrall 494]

Turbulent designs have posted the same thing today. Moving towards V4 and Xp11 only 

[DylanC 181]

MikeT said it best and completely agree.  To me this announcement isn't a surprise as it was just a matter of time.  Shouldn't be a big deal for a sim that's been around for as long as FSX has.  The existing add on library available for FSX is vast enough to keep folks who aren't interested in either switching or just can't stomach the cost of transitioning very busy for a long time.  

 

[CaribbeanCLANK 134]

Well I am ready to toss all that 32 bit stuff in the trash. We need to let it go and accept the future in front of us. 

I understand why developers will want to stop supporting the old sim platforms and focus their attention and resources towards the new platforms. FSX has been fun but all good things come to an end.....to make room for something better.

[bonchie 2,305]

I think it's time. Nothing stops people from continuing to use their old sims with their old add ons if they want. But it's time to take advantage of the new technology and features instead of holding everyone back just so someone still stuck in FSX can have the same add-on. 

At this point P3Dv4 should be the focus within the next 6 months or so. There will be no reason not to upgrade at that point and if you've got some very old add ons that will never be updated, that's just part of the cost of entry. 

[Mickeyj 35]

Hi there,

it still makes me smile when i read such threads like this or "FSX or P3Dv4" If a user likes to have its older sim so be it. If he/she never had probs with OOM,CTD, BSOD etc fine. IMHO since the release of P3Dv2 everybody seemed to crave for a 64bit FSX code based sim with backwards compatibility. Now P3D[6]4 arrived with more than just a simple backwards compatibility, a way more advanced sim than FS9/FSX could ever be and there are still folks who want to stay with FSX. Why?

Of course it would be a pain to pay extra charge for a 64bit updated add on version but hey it is work that must be done by the devs. Work means time that is spent on a legacy version and not on a new modern add ons. Time means money that is not earned when working on old stuff. Getting free updates for our 32bit FSX/P3Dv1-v3 is great for us and much appreciated but bad for the devs. At this point i´d like to say thanks to all 3rd party devs that gives me free 64bit updates to my thounsands of payware add ons. So lets support the people by buying their products to keep em working on new stuff.

Anyway it is time for us to move on and face the future of 64bit FSX based simulation. Maybe it is nice to have a piece of historical simulation software on the SSD, ah wait isnt it the case that FSX must be on an old slow HDD instead of a fast modern  SSD? Sticking with FSX and claiming new products for it slows down innovation, development and evolution for new products.

I for myself dropped FS9 and FSX/P3Dv1+v2 long time ago. v3 is only in use when flying in VR. But it will follow the other version as soon as all my add ons lifted to 64bit and Flyinside find itself to 64bit as well.

[stephenbgs 169]

Everyone who is serious about this hobby should buy V4 or XP11

My theory is while LM aren't short on cash flow, the 3rd party developers need to know there is plenty of V4 customers to support the platform 

I feel the same about XP11. Cash flow maybe more important to them then LM but they need as much community support as possible, while it's not my sim of choice I still fly it once or so a week it has great potential 

We need to get out of this mindset that "I'll buy V4 64bit it when most of my addons are compatible" 

If 3rd party developers drop support for 32bit platforms and there is no substantial market base after the first wave of V4 addons make it to market that could be detrimental to some 3rd party companies 

In short and I say it with respect for the community, get off the fence and buy V4 even if it is just going to sit on your hard drive for the next 6 months and supply a solid market base for the community to thrive

[Patco Lch 1,467]

I'm guessing the simmers using the latest new sims are on the cutting edge of of sim technology. You might say they are the sim elite which is admirable but probably the sim minority. For  economic reasons I don't think developers will not be leaving FSX for a long time  because that is probably where most of the sim money resides.  

I for one have looked hard at P3D and XP and yet see no reason to go through the expense of repurchasing my favorite and expensive aircraft . From the forum I see all sims have there issues. I'll stay with FSX and I believe our number is legion.  

[zmak 331]

5 minutes ago, PATCO LCH said:

repurchasing my favorite and expensive aircraft . From the forum I see all sims have there issues. I'll stay with FSX and I believe our number is legion.  

+1

[DylanC 181]

57 minutes ago, PATCO LCH said:

I'll stay with FSX and I believe our number is legion.  

Respectfully, as much as the FSX number is legion currently, the gap between P3D and FSX is widening.  Even without the introduction of v4 because of the continued support from LM.  

I'm sure the cost to provide software for FSX and P3D pre-v4 while at least manageable, was still considerable.  With the advent of v4, that gap has widened significantly making costs prohibitive to continue development for a piece of software that was released back in 2006.  Only a minute number of developers can sustain that.  I think it's wishful thinking to believe developers will continue with FSX.  Only time will tell.

[Patco Lch 1,467]

2 minutes ago, DylanC said:

Only time will tell.

Yep. Speaking only for myself as a a seasoned citizen I don't know if I have the time line to start over developing another sim after ten years and Thousands of dollars in addons developing my FSX. If not one more addon was developed and sold for FSX I would pretty much have my sim and be out of the purchasers ranks for good. I don't know how many there are like me.  

Side note, I know this has been discussed often but the EULA on P3D runs me off. I am not a student or teacher or professional. I would be purchasing for personal entertainment so according to LM I can't purchase with out misrepresenting my purpose. I closely looked at P3D some time ago but decided not to buy for many reasons, this being one of them.  

Oh well. Good we have developing choices I guess. 

[zmak 331]

Personally I will switch over in around a year or two when it's stable. Some points below to consider 

Just a guess but there would be thousands of fsx se owners through the steam sales who won't be switching anytime soon and one of the reasons is not only the cost of repurchasing but the very expensive costs of upgrading the rig. 

From what I see on the forums is that a powerful gpu is required where as fsx will happily chug along on far cheaper system. 

The hard core guys on avsim are the exception forking out a small fortune for a 1080ti 

FSX and v3 will still be where the money is for a long time to come and devs aren't in it for love alone 

Edit 

Bryan York had just announced an up grade fee for all products v4