Mitch24

Why Does my ATC suck so much

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Hello, Maybe someone can help me. 

This always seems to happen to me. I was doing a flight from KMSP to KDEN, and everyone knows that KMSP is a very very busy airport with tons of gates. The runways always get SO congested, I literally gave up on the flight after like 40 minutes. There was like 15 aircraft waiting to takeoff all at once, and then 5 aircraft landing, all at once. This is so terrible, in real life, it seems to go very smooth without hiccup. 

Is this just because P3D has terrible ATC? My Traffic is set at 40% with UT. Can someone give me some advice would be greatly appreciated 

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People these days have moved on to IVAO,Pilot Edge and Vatsim use all 3 to get maximum coverage 

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5 minutes ago, ukplane1 said:

People these days have moved on to IVAO,Pilot Edge and Vatsim use all 3 to get maximum coverage 

Is that an add-on? Where do you get it?

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Vatsim and Ivao are free  

Vatsim is more professional than Ivao

Pilotedge has a fee , the controllers get paid by that fee.

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41 minutes ago, ukplane1 said:

People these days have moved on to IVAO,Pilot Edge and Vatsim use all 3 to get maximum coverage 

What happen when you are in the middle of the flight and the controller sign off, or your sim crash?

I've never used any of those so I'm just curious.

31 minutes ago, Bobsk8 said:

Wow you are really fast! j/k

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Lower your traffic.

I moved to Pilot2ATC for my ATC needs. But nothing might help you replicate real life.

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1 hour ago, Mitch24 said:

 

Is this just because P3D has terrible ATC? My Traffic is set at 40% with UT. Can someone give me some advice would be greatly appreciated 

it's not exactly an ATC issue.. none of the ATC packages control traffic other than VoxATC which generates it's own.

what you are seeing is the AI flightplans for all the planes at your airports. Probably from the default AI but add-on packages like mytraffic also add scheduled flights.

so if it's a busy time of day in the real world there's probably a lot of planes. thing is they all just basically start up and taxi to the gate. they don't really know about the other planes other than if there's one in front of them or on approach that they have to wait for. they also are all typically using one runway where in the world a busy airport like that may have multiple departure and landing runways flowing constantly. they stop and pause before takeoff instead of doing a rolling takeoff from the taxiway like might happen at a busy hub.

as pointed out above the easiest fix is just to drop your percentage down a bit to something where the amount of planes you have to wait for is comfortable to your liking. you might also want to look at using the AI limiter in FSUIPC if you have that, which can give your more flexibilty in controlling that. 

and to re-iterate my point, these issues will happen with pretty much any ATC package. some of them will play messages of giving instructions to the AI traffic but they are really just detecting it, not actually controlling. but if you find the right balance of settings it can feel reasonably realistic.

good luck

cheers,-andy crosby

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4 minutes ago, spesimen said:

it's not exactly an ATC issue.. none of the ATC packages control traffic other than VoxATC which generates it's own.

what you are seeing is the AI flightplans for all the planes at your airports. Probably from the default AI but add-on packages like mytraffic also add scheduled flights.

so if it's a busy time of day in the real world there's probably a lot of planes. thing is they all just basically start up and taxi to the gate. they don't really know about the other planes other than if there's one in front of them or on approach that they have to wait for. they also are all typically using one runway where in the world a busy airport like that may have multiple departure and landing runways flowing constantly. they stop and pause before takeoff instead of doing a rolling takeoff from the taxiway like might happen at a busy hub.

as pointed out above the easiest fix is just to drop your percentage down a bit to something where the amount of planes you have to wait for is comfortable to your liking. you might also want to look at using the AI limiter in FSUIPC if you have that, which can give your more flexibilty in controlling that. 

and to re-iterate my point, these issues will happen with pretty much any ATC package. some of them will play messages of giving instructions to the AI traffic but they are really just detecting it, not actually controlling. but if you find the right balance of settings it can feel reasonably realistic.

good luck

cheers,-andy crosby

So the programs listed above won't fix this issue with the hoards of planes going to the runway when I start a flight? 

Is this something Lockheed Martin could improve with P3D? Like dynamic ATC and AI Flightplans where planes will take off on different runways.. etc. 

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I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for LM to totally revamp the ATC code. If it ever happens it'll be years from now.

I would suggest EditVoicePackXL which is a cheap payware purchase, but provides a very simple way to basically accelerate how fast ATC talks to aircraft. On the fastest setting it can significantly help out with clearing traffic jams (although it's not perfect by any means.) Second, I would turn down your traffic density a bit. It's really the only thing you can do that will keep things flowing smoothly with 100% certainty.

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Or just taxi to the head of the line right through the AI.  

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AI uses flightplans with times. When you start the sim it takes into account all the AI up to half an hour before the sim start time. This is why it is always chaos "initally." You will find some AI using the default weather at start-up and some using the injected weather from an add-on. If you are using injected weather make sure that it is present in the aircraft systems and instruments. Check the QNH and the airfield elevation on your altimeter. Some weather engines allow you to update AI. If so do that too.

As for the likes of vatsim. Yes, they are good but only if you have controllers on the route you want to fly at that time. A much better option would be an add-on like PF3. Thus giving you the flexibility to fly when you want and where you want. It is fully supported and updated frequently. Fully compliant with FAA and ICAO, and IFR and VFR procedures.

I have my AI traffic set to 70%. PF3 allows me to jump the queue for take-off and change my gate if the desgnated one is occupied.

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As mentioned above when you start up the sim, any AI aircraft that was supposed to depart in the previous 30 minutes or so will try to taxi and take off.  At a busy airport that's a huge amount of traffic trying to move at once.  

 If you're flying a lightly simulated aircraft where you also start taxiing for takeoff within 5 minutes of the sim starting you'll get caught in that traffic.  I normally fly aircraft that require more time to set up for the flight, so by the time I'm moving 15-20 minutes later things have settled out and returned to normal.

I can also vouch for editvoicepack, I run default ATC on the second highest speed and that definitely helps.

Another thing to consider is the afx file for the airport.  IRL, busy airports with parallel runways will primarily use one runway for departures and one for arrivals.  Some add on airports include this configuration and some don't.  The default ATC is not that good at managing busy runway operations with both arrivals and departures on the same runway, nor are AI aircraft that good at vacating the runway quickly after they land.  So anytime you have a busy runway with mixed operations, things will quickly grind to a halt.

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4 hours ago, vololiberista said:

AI uses flightplans with times. When you start the sim it takes into account all the AI up to half an hour before the sim start time. This is why it is always chaos "initally." You will find some AI using the default weather at start-up and some using the injected weather from an add-on. If you are using injected weather make sure that it is present in the aircraft systems and instruments. Check the QNH and the airfield elevation on your altimeter. Some weather engines allow you to update AI. If so do that too.

As for the likes of vatsim. Yes, they are good but only if you have controllers on the route you want to fly at that time. A much better option would be an add-on like PF3. Thus giving you the flexibility to fly when you want and where you want. It is fully supported and updated frequently. Fully compliant with FAA and ICAO, and IFR and VFR procedures.

I have my AI traffic set to 70%. PF3 allows me to jump the queue for take-off and change my gate if the desgnated one is occupied.

 

Thanks for the advice on PF3, but that program doesn't control your AI Traffic... so you are not really fixing the issue, just working around it. Are there any programs that also control the AI traffic to fly more realistic? 

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1 hour ago, Mitch24 said:

 

Thanks for the advice on PF3, but that program doesn't control your AI Traffic... so you are not really fixing the issue, just working around it. Are there any programs that also control the AI traffic to fly more realistic? 

Well, there are but they don't control it in a realistic way. Your best bet is to try AI Controller. That works with PF3 too.

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1 hour ago, Mitch24 said:

Are there any programs that also control the AI traffic to fly more realistic? 

I've been recently talking a lot about it. I wish the folks at LM or Flight1 (UTL) came up with a set of tools that would be P3D built in or built into the UTL interface that would allow a certain set of options to control the traffic. I personally believe that ATC and AI in general are in need of a major revamp all together and I'm seriously hoping that someone will finally get this right. I am personally unable to get the AI Controller working in v4, but if someone was kind enough in guiding me how to do so, I'd be forever grateful. 

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1 hour ago, Drumcode said:

I've been recently talking a lot about it. I wish the folks at LM or Flight1 (UTL) came up with a set of tools that would be P3D built in or built into the UTL interface that would allow a certain set of options to control the traffic. I personally believe that ATC and AI in general are in need of a major revamp all together and I'm seriously hoping that someone will finally get this right. I am personally unable to get the AI Controller working in v4, but if someone was kind enough in guiding me how to do so, I'd be forever grateful. 

I agree the ATC needs a whole re-vamping. After all, isn't this one of the core functions of a simulator, the ATC?? It's surprising to me how little Lockheed or other companies have paid attention to it. 

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IMO theres been a number of fair attempts to do ATC over the years and they all are quite lacking simply because ATC is just too dynamic and when your dealing with programs, they're written in a linear fashion thats very scripted and if the flight plays out slightly different, the programs dont deal with it well. Just look at what should be a seemingly simple solution to AI seperation, yes I see constant go arounds, no matter what program ive used. Nothing can beat human decision and interaction.  Plus flying a STAR when theres not alot of traffic around is not very realistic at all, and on the flip side, when its super busy, all program ATC just doesnt deal with it well. 

The answer is online ATC like Vatsim and the like, but the huge con with that is the coverage, and for alot of people a psychological barrier to take part for numerous reasons. Myself included. But the more people that can do online ATC, the better the coverage should get, and more traffic thats real and live and reacts dynamically. 

I'll give Microsoft a big commend on their voices for ATC though. Albeit slow, no one has come close to the MS voices. Everyone else sounds robotic. 

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That's an accurate summary post regarding  ATC. I have some additional minor points. Although AI  Controller 2.0 takes some work to set up, it seems to realistically "steer" the AI aircraft. The two "live AI" 3rd party options also produce lifelike airborne AI movement. Unfortunately, both both AIC2 and live AI, then the default  ATC communication doesn't work.

Only VOXATC  has the "correct" overall approach (albeit one with some quirks) of ditching both the default  AI control and the default ATC communications. Personally, I don't find the collection  of default Win 10 and 3rd party TTS voices to be that robotic and that's what Pilot2ATC and VOXATC both use. 

In any case, unless some 3rd party developer decides to sell a product like VOXATC, all remaining options will continue  to be suboptimal. But even the default AI/ATC in P3d is better than what's available  in any other sim. P3d has evolved into the minivan of flight sims. It more or less does everything  okay.

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36 minutes ago, HighTowers said:

IMO theres been a number of fair attempts to do ATC over the years and they all are quite lacking simply because ATC is just too dynamic

There has, but none have attempted to completely re-vamp it. I don't believe that it can't be done, I mean, they made FSX 64- bit, everyone though that was impossible 5 years ago. 

 

Maybe a Traffic Program like Ultimate Traffic could tie in ATC with the Traffic? Like make it one-big traffic+atc add-on? 

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The problem with an ATC programme is voices. I'm not talking about being robotic or not as that is frankly subjective. The problem is a. Just how many accents do you need and b. How many different phrases to be recorded. Both of these are finite in the sense that let's say 119 voices have been done but there may have been a few changes since so another 10-20 voices are recorded with the updated terminology. All that means is that you will of course mostly hear the 10-20 voices. As for cutting and pasting phrases into others to make something more correct in the case of PF3 it would in the region of 119 x 250 times. So easily something you could do before tea!!

And then of course how the programme runs. In what situation it says what. I would suggest one sets aside 3 years to get to a basic working model.

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Been flight simming for 30 years now.  I used to get frustrated with the way ATC and AI behave in my flight sims.  Then I finally realized the raised blood pressure ain't worth it.

It's a SIM.  When it doesn't work "perfectly", just be the intelligent human being using the sim.  FAKE IT. 

Like someone else mentioned, if you don't want to wait in line, turn off your crash detection and taxi through them to the runway for takeoff.  Or if some AI jerk pilot is flying the same approach that YOU have been cleared for, run 'em over, fly through 'em, laugh it off.  Ain't nobody gonna lose a real pilot's license doing that in our sims.  And if the ATC controller cancels your clearance on final for "violating the rules", tough.  Let 'em.  Finish your landing.  Take whatever taxiway turnoff from the runway you want then.  Run over some more AI airplanes in your way on the way to your gate.  If you called the gate with GSX, those guys will still be there when you get there.  HAVE FUN!!!

Of course, it helps being over 60-years old doing the above things, 'cos by then you've earned the right to say, "Scr*w Them!!!"

:laugh:

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11 minutes ago, FalconAF said:

Like someone else mentioned, if you don't want to wait in line, turn off your crash detection and taxi through them to the runway for takeoff.  

The problem with this, is that then the ATC will cancel your IFR Flight Plan because you weren't cleared for takeoff!

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The default ATC won't let you fly a SID without canceling your clearance either (in many cases).  So...fake it again.  Once you get airborne, refile with ATC and they'll start working with you again.  Like this post is all about, it isn't "perfect" in so, so many different ways.

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