AviatorMan

A2A Bonanza revisited

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A few weeks ago there was a long thread discussion on this forum about the A2A V-Bonanza, and the apparent overly strong left pull on takeoff. The thread was moved to the A2A forum, where I continued to follow the discussion. The discussion evolved to the recommended  use of a bit of right-rudder, and minimum aileron, at rotation (and at landing as well). I have now flown the A2A Bonanza many takeoffs using this technique, and it no longer seems to be a problem. So perhaps the flight model is OK after all, and it is just a bit of finessing the piloting technique? I wanted to bring this up here again, as I suspect there are more users on this forum than on the A2A forum, to get some wider feedback. Have others who were having this problem employed this technique with success?

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I also noticed this strange behaviour of the very strong left pull after immediate take off. Being a PPL pilot myself and having flown different types of GA planes (with less HP however compared to the Bonanza) I was struck by surprise and asked myself if this left pull was truly realistic. If yes, than to my opinion many take off accidents must have occured!

My work around was to make a very shalow initial climb (just as the F16's do (:-)) untill the speed reached > 95 knots and than increased the climb angle by pulling the yoke. 

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I believe most of the initial hard pulls to the left were related to how loaded down the plane was and the timing of the rotate and how aggressive the rotate was.  In using the A2A Bonanza I find if I gently pull back on the stick at about 80 kts I get a gentle lift off  and straight and level climb.  If I try to rotate sooner or pull back too hard then I get the strong left pull tendency

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Hi Folks,

Well - yeah - no Vee time - if you go easy and don't pull hard (Scott noted they are heavy on the controls) - yep - much more stable takeoff - but - as posted above - had this been a real world characteristic - to the severity experienced in the A2A model - Bonanza's would have been dropping like flies... I think the pitch is a bit too sensitive as well... I'm hoping A2A revisits the Bonanza FDE and does some tweaking at some point... The effects seem a tad over exaggerated in my humble opinion - their Skylane does similar... Try the Skylane in a 15 knot crosswind - it's still deadly - which is a plane I've flown in the RW and is known to be ultra stable - if a tad nose heavy with that big bore Continental up front... Just my two cents - take it for what it's worth...

Regards,
Scott

 

Edited by scottb613

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I find the Bonanza very stable... in take-off, climb, descent, and landing.  During cruise in choppy air it will do its famous "Dancing Dutch Roll", but that's easy to contend with (and the autopilot handles the Dance well, too).  Twice I've had it pull hard to the left after breaking ground.  Both times I had a right crosswind, an aft CG, but more importantly I added too much positive pitch at too low a speed.  As posted above, I've also started keeping the airplane at a shallow pitch angle until I attain 90-95 KIAS.  I've also added a bit of (flat) curve to my flight controller's pitch axis... slows the initial input of that axis (same thing can be done using the Control Panel (Shift 3)). 

What I find difficult about the airplane is the pitch axis of the autopilot... climbing, and especially descending using the autopilot is a roller coaster!  I've pretty much given up on that device and trim the airplane for a climb/descent angle that gives me the rate I want... much easier than chasing that autopilot.  Also, I've replaced too many flaps (4 as I recall in about 45 hrs)... and never deployed them at excessive speed.

Greg

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AviatorMan,

You did well to bring it up again here. I moved recently to P3Dv4 and got the C172 and the V35. I first flew the C172, and I had the  strong left pull on takeoff, like there was a wind gust. Of course I did tests with no wind, see level, joystick calibrated, etc.
I did not read the thread you mention but my understanding is:
- Maybe A2A modeled too good the flight model because in real life, a medium stick movement results in a small surface input. But our sim joystick is not a real stick
- On the C172, I finally realized that the strong pull to the left right after take off is kind of start of stall
- I realized that I pulled to much on the stick (while ok on other airplanes), need to be extremely smooth
- If the manual say for example rotation speed = 55 kts, it does not mean that the gear lifts off the ground at that speed, but start to pull gently at that speed

I must admit that I flew the V35 after the C172 and there was a left pull too but less than on the C172. Maybe because aware already?

Also there is a non documented feature accessed through SHIFT+3 : in the lower left corner, you can set the elevator force. If I am correct, the higher the number, the harder you have to pull for the elevator to move.

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Basic I know but also think of balancing left and right fuel before take-off and put a co-pilot of the same weigh as the pilot.

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This video may be helpful to this conversation:

And maybe this will give some insights into the stall/spin issues:

Jesse

Edited by JesC
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Many thanks Jesse and King Schools!

Right rudder rules lol

Please help me:

I did not hear/understand what the lady said in the end: we need to apply right rudder not only to keep the plane centerline while on ground but also after the plane takes off.

That is continuous right rudder. Correct?

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5 minutes ago, Simicro said:

Many thanks Jesse and King Schools!

Right rudder rules lol

Please help me:

I did not hear/understand what the lady said in the end: we need to apply right rudder not only to keep the plane centerline while on ground but also after the plane takes off.

That is continuous right rudder. Correct?

A c172r/s model ain't no v-tail bonanza.

On most single engines when climbing some right rudder will be needed. The higher the power setting & the higher up you pitch the nose, the more right rudder is required to keep the airplane flying straight & coordinated.

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35 minutes ago, Simicro said:

That is continuous right rudder. Correct?

She, Martha King, is talking about adding additional right rudder when lifting the nose and taking off.

It might be helpful to practice this is no wind conditions to get a better idea of the effects on the aircraft.

Jesse

Edited by JesC
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If your sim rig does not have a yoke and separate rudder pedals (as a real aircraft would), I think it might be difficult to get the correct rudder application with a joystick. When you start the takeoff roll, you are steering with the rudder pedals (which control both the nose wheel and the rudder). When the air speed is sufficient, you are using the rudder itself to keep on the centre line. When I get to the right speed on the Bonanza and rotate I increase the right rudder pedal slightly to avoid the pull to the left. If it still pulls left, I use more pedal. If it pulls right, I ease off right pedal.  As others have noted, just after lift off the aircraft is partly flying on the "air cushion" effect, so generally you nose down just a little until you gain more air speed,all the time using the rudder pedals to avoid pull to the left or right. Climbing to steep at slow speeds will amplify the left pull.

I understand that Scott of A2A, who is an experienced pilot, had the use of a V Bonanza to fly during the development of their model, so I would assume that he would be a good judge if he had this flight characteristic true to the real-world aircraft, and one would expect he made many adjustments to refine the model before it was released. A2A also refined the model further after release based upon feedback from users in the forums.

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Folks,

I own a Bonanza A36, and can confirm it requires a decent amount of right rudder to keep the plane tracking the center-line of the runway. I tend to also use aileron as necessary too.  Happy to answer any questions as they come up. 

 

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14 minutes ago, busdriver said:

Folks,

I own a Bonanza A36, and can confirm it requires a decent amount of right rudder to keep the plane tracking the center-line of the runway. I tend to also use aileron as necessary too.  Happy to answer any questions as they come up. 

 

Hi Bill,

Very cool...

I can only speak for myself - but the right rudder isn’t the issue - every plane I’ve ever flown requires right rudder - the bigger the engine the more rudder needed for obvious reasons...

The part that bothers me about the FDE as well as the Skylane - they have a very strong tendency to ROLL off to the left on takeoff - which is a sensation I’ve never had in any aircraft... Alsa can you speak to the overall pitch sensitivity of the model vs real world pitch sensitivity ? Granted they are not identical models...

Thanks so much...

Regards,

Scott

 

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Very interesting, thanks all. Got it fot the additional right rudder when lifting.

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This discussion frustrates me a bit. I have around 30 hours in a V Bonanza going back many years. For me, I'd use rudder and aileron as necessary - more wind more rudder, etc. As to sensitivity, on the one I flew, I basically just curled my fingers a bit and she lifted off as opposed to the Cessna 310 where I felt more pressure.

My frustration comes with trying to equate real life mechanical feel to the sim. I use CH yoke, rudders and TQ and the "feel" is no where near real life. I've tried every adjustment including disassembly and lubricating parts etc with high quality lubricants. I just think it is a difficult question to answer.

I'll let @busdriver who is current answer but I found the A2A Bonanza to be just as I remembered the real one. Only surprise was the AP - didn't have one in the bird I flew - which made cross country flying very interesting.

Vic

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I gave up on so called "yokes", just went back to my warthog. I could convince myself a stick was fine, but that yoke was soooo unbelievable in trying to pretend I was in a plane. 

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as scott from a2a says, the rw bonanza is heavy on the ailerons. so pull on the yoke requires some effort on takeoff. he further adds that on takeoff apart from applying appropriate right rudder pressure, one must pull the yoke back very gently at around 80 knots. i follow this procedure and find takeoffs to be smooth and trouble free.

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Folks,

I don't own the A2A Bonanza software, so I can't compare it to the real world. If this is the same software as whats included in P3D, I can say that I don't find it to be an accurate representation of how my 1975 A36 flies.

It's almost show time, need to run. I'll post a few techniques later.

-B

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6 hours ago, busdriver said:

If this is the same software as whats included in P3D, I can say that I don't find it to be an accurate representation of how my 1975 A36 flies.

Hi Busdriver, not sure what you mean about the same software included in P3D, but the A2A V Bonanza is definitely not included as a default aircraft in P3D. 

Regards

 

 

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23 minutes ago, AviatorMan said:

Hi Busdriver, not sure what you mean about the same software included in P3D, but the A2A V Bonanza is definitely not included as a default aircraft in P3D. 

Regards

 

 

I believe he's referring to the default A36 included in P3D.

Vic

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14 hours ago, busdriver said:

If this is the same software as whats included in P3D, I can say that I don't find it to be an accurate representation of how my 1975 A36 flies.

You want a better FDE for the default A36? Just PMd you.

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When I first started flying the A2A V35, I also had pitch issues and felt that with my yoke it was a just a bit too sensitive in roll as well.  I addressed the pitch issue by moving the A2A pitch adjustment control to around 60 - this control really does make a difference.  For roll I set a fairly heavy curve in FSUIPC to limit deflection near the center of the yoke and have worked on making smaller, more focused roll input.  With these two changes, I'm almost to the point where I feel I can hand fly close to test standards in most conditions.  A few more hours of practice and I think I'll get there.

As for the roll on takeoff issue, I've honestly never had the problem.  I wait till about 80 KTS (which is a bit faster than book) and apply very gentle back pressure.  Takeoff after takeoff, the plane flies itself off the runway with no unusual tendency to roll.  This is not a plane that will reward you for an aggressive rotation.

Someone else mentioned issues with pitch and the AP.  I also struggled with it at first until one of the A2A guys pointed out what should have been obvious to me, but wasn't.  When you turn on the AP, it captures and holds pitch angle, NOT rate of climb and NOT airspeed.  It does this even if you have not selected and armed an altitude setting.  If the AP is on, and you're not in altitude hold mode, it's locked to a pitch angle.  The key to success is to keep this in mind, and use the AP's pitch adjustment in concert with power settings to get a stable ROC or ROD.  Once you get the hang of it, it actually works very well.  You just need to understand what it does and doesn't do.  (Edit - the flight director bars can really help you see what the AP is trying to do)

As mentioned elsewhere, I think this is a plane which could really benefit from something like the Brunner yoke so that you could FEEL the plane.  Nevertheless and despite some early reservations, after some adjustments and a bit of a learning curve this has become my favorite GA plane, hands down.

Scott 

Edited by tttocs
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26 minutes ago, tttocs said:

Someone else mentioned issues with pitch and the AP.  I also struggled with it at first until one of the A2A guys pointed out what should have been obvious to me, but wasn't.  When you turn on the AP, it captures and holds pitch angle, NOT rate of climb and NOT airspeed.  It does this even if you have not selected and armed an altitude setting.  If the AP is on, and you're not in altitude hold mode, it's locked to a pitch angle.  The key to success is to keep this in mind, and use the AP's pitch adjustment in concert with power settings to get a stable ROC or ROD.  Once you get the hang of it, it actually works very well.  You just need to understand what it does and doesn't do.  (Edit - the flight director bars can really help you see what the AP is trying to do)

Not sure if this was added for me... if so, thanks.  I understand the AP Pitch Control doesn't target rate of climb but rather pitch angle.  My problem with the airplane is that no matter what pitch angle/power setting I use in any particular scenario, the airplane will not even come close to staying at that vertical speed solution... especially during descent.  We're talking +- 1500 FPM rollercoaster cycles!  The airplane even spun on me a couple nights ago while slowly climbing to the top of a rollercoaster cycle.  I've been advised to reinstall the airplane (I'll download the latest installer rather than use the original I have and then updating)... will do that this weekend and then test.

Despite the AP issues and my almost constant broken flaps, I really like this airplane.  I've been flying it almost exclusively since the day of release.  The one thing I clearly do not like about the Bonanza is that I'm unsure how much I'll be flying my Comanche now. 😀

Greg

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54 minutes ago, lownslo said:

Not sure if this was added for me... if so, thanks.  I understand the AP Pitch Control doesn't target rate of climb but rather pitch angle.  My problem with the airplane is that no matter what pitch angle/power setting I use in any particular scenario, the airplane will not even come close to staying at that vertical speed solution... especially during descent.  We're talking +- 1500 FPM rollercoaster cycles!  The airplane even spun on me a couple nights ago while slowly climbing to the top of a rollercoaster cycle.  I've been advised to reinstall the airplane (I'll download the latest installer rather than use the original I have and then updating)... will do that this weekend and then test.

Despite the AP issues and my almost constant broken flaps, I really like this airplane.  I've been flying it almost exclusively since the day of release.  The one thing I clearly do not like about the Bonanza is that I'm unsure how much I'll be flying my Comanche now. 😀

Greg

Hi Greg,

Do you have the "UP/DOWN" buttons mapped on your joystick ? If looking down in the VC to press them - I could see it would be hard to set right causing overshoot... I was flying numerous instrument procedures last weekend - the AP performed flawlessly - in both climbs - descents - and maintaining the GS (ILS/RNAV)... Best of luck...

Also on the "UP/DOWN" button - are you using single clicks sparingly and not holding the buttons in for any length of time ?

Regards,

Scott 

Edited by scottb613
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