>That's only because "we" haven't seen what the new camera>system will be capable of providing... As I understand it,>and based on my own digging into the various panel.cfg and>sim.cfg files, we will have a LOT of new possibilities that>weren't available with the old, "FOUR camera system.">I did a little digging myself ... From what I can see an addon called Walk and Follow covers a most of what this new camera system does ....oh and one can now a have B777/A346 tailfin/tailplane/nosewheel multicamera camera view.Yes a good selling point for payware developers ...but not for me.Add all the eyecandy you like but please don't mess with my cockpits!:-wave

regardsEdaka Capt. P[/font color]i[/font color]c[/font color]a[/font color]s[/font color]s[/font color]o[/font color]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v640/edetroit100/eddd2.jpgMy FS9 Videos] 2D panel lovers are gonna love FSX ...[/font color]NOT![/font color]AMD Athlon 64 3500+, 1024Mb PC3200 DDR, 300Gb HD 256Mb DDR Nvidia 7800 GTX PCI-E, Audigy 2 ZSCH Products Yoke, Pedals and Throttle Quadrant[/font color

>I know it is one heck of a change, but my hunch is that we>will see more of this type of quality VC's in FSX. The Realair>SF260 (FS9) is an example (VC only) of the quality I am sure>will be standard rather than an exception.That is as maybe Bob two points here.So of us like to tinker with panel design...that is make panels to suit our own tastes.Tinkering with 2D panels is far easier than tinkering with 3D'sIn fact it is fair to say not even many payware developers could make a panel like the Real Air's SF360.BTW the SF360 is nowhere near photoreal enough for me... smooth gauges yes but I can get both with my 2D's :)I'm not sure I am putting my point across or that those who have not made a panel understand me. :(I want to start a Freedom to Tinker group ....one cannot tinker with VC's

regardsEdaka Capt. P[/font color]i[/font color]c[/font color]a[/font color]s[/font color]s[/font color]o[/font color]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v640/edetroit100/eddd2.jpgMy FS9 Videos] 2D panel lovers are gonna love FSX ...[/font color]NOT![/font color]AMD Athlon 64 3500+, 1024Mb PC3200 DDR, 300Gb HD 256Mb DDR Nvidia 7800 GTX PCI-E, Audigy 2 ZSCH Products Yoke, Pedals and Throttle Quadrant[/font color

Just a thought... I made a photoreal edit of the Aerosim L-1011 panelIt has a VFR and IFR view and all the other panels views. All of which are very high def photoreal and all dimensions are true to life with smooth gauges. The feeling of immersion I get from my L-10 is like no other.There is only one thing that spoils it.The side views are from Aerosim's VC! :-loland are not the quality I desire!...so a VC for my side views will not do!If you would like to see my edit check here: (It is not available btw)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDfCfCDOMk8

regardsEdaka Capt. P[/font color]i[/font color]c[/font color]a[/font color]s[/font color]s[/font color]o[/font color]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v640/edetroit100/eddd2.jpgMy FS9 Videos] 2D panel lovers are gonna love FSX ...[/font color]NOT![/font color]AMD Athlon 64 3500+, 1024Mb PC3200 DDR, 300Gb HD 256Mb DDR Nvidia 7800 GTX PCI-E, Audigy 2 ZSCH Products Yoke, Pedals and Throttle Quadrant[/font color

Please, pardon my ignorance. I am a complete newbie to these forums, so I am not understanding what is meant by a 2D panel side view. I certainly can look out the side windows of the aircraft in FSX when using a 2d panel, can't I? Or is something else meant?I was able to look out the side windows in the Baron and the Beaver and in an imported Cessna 172.Ralph

Okay, let me see if I understand this correctly.What has happened is that when in 2D panel mode, when using a side view one is actually viewing a VC side view, not a 2D side view?Well, I think there is some irony in the fact that this was not even noticed until it was explicitly pointed out. It seems, therefore, that the lack of a 2D side view is not that glaring a shortcoming or it would have been noticed immediately by everyone!Granted it may be a bigger issue to panel designers, as apparently VCs are harder to design than 2Ds, right?I'm just trying to provide some perspective -- no pun intended -- here.-Rick

>Okay, let me see if I understand this correctly.>>What has happened is that when in 2D panel mode, when using a>side view one is actually viewing a VC side view, not a 2D>side view?>>Well, I think there is some irony in the fact that this was>not even noticed until it was explicitly pointed out. It>seems, therefore, that the lack of a 2D side view is not that>glaring a shortcoming or it would have been noticed>immediately by everyone!>>Granted it may be a bigger issue to panel designers, as>apparently VCs are harder to design than 2Ds, right?>>I'm just trying to provide some perspective -- no pun intended>-- here.>>-RickI don't agree. I am not an FSX beta tester but I tried the demo just to see what was new. We were told 2D panels would still work in FSX so I and I am sure most took it for granted they would work perfectly.I had a quick fly/look around in FSX and then dumped it as I'd rather spend my precious time flying flights in FS9 and wait until FSX is released.I only found out because a little bird told me ... then it dawned on me just how many panels will not work in FSX!I know you guys think ..oh just add a VC side view ...but arent you taking for granted that just because it is a VC it is good?In my experience most VC's are inaccurate in their dimensions and have inferiour textures.

regardsEdaka Capt. P[/font color]i[/font color]c[/font color]a[/font color]s[/font color]s[/font color]o[/font color]

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FWIW I used to be a strictly 2D man before I downloaded the demo. But now that I've seen how the mouselook works, and having imagined what a TrackIR device could do for the VC, I must say I'm a convert.For me the best feature of the old 2D panel was the lighting, and I suggest you look at the PSS Concorde at night, or Matthias Lieberecht's exceptional Bae 146, to see what I mean. With the old 2D panel you could get a virtually photographic lighting effect.But having had a look at the VC lighting in the demo, I think that the time has come to try something new. I'm going to get one of those TrackIRs because I reckon I'm going to be a VC man from now on.Mike.

Have to bump this as I feel it is important.Can't see why a new camera view system should have had any effect on the fixed views that are used for 2d side views. If you can do the forward view you can do any view rotated around that viewpoint.To all those thinking it's not a great loss, think about all those photorealistic side views from PMDG, Captain Sim etc. utilising real bitmap images. You're now left with 3d rendered approximations.

Ed,To be truthful, like many others I have generally preferred the 2Ds in the past. But as someone has pointed out elsewhere, we just will have to learn to adjust a bit. We have the 'A' key to zoom in on VC areas as needed. Plus as Tdragger has said, we have yet to see the VC lighting which he says will be nice. So I doubt things will be as bad as you fear.(Incidentally I looked at some of your videos on You Tube -- good work!Regards,-Rick

>So I doubt things>will be as bad as you fear.Well let me tell you how bad it will be for me.None ...not one of my panels will work in FSX...I want to be able to make different cockpit configs....VC's are too limiting for me....and in fact for everyone as not many can make VC's

regardsEdaka Capt. P[/font color]i[/font color]c[/font color]a[/font color]s[/font color]s[/font color]o[/font color]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v640/edetroit100/eddd2.jpgMy FS9 Videos] 2D panel lovers are gonna love FSX ...[/font color]NOT![/font color]AMD Athlon 64 3500+, 1024Mb PC3200 DDR, 300Gb HD 256Mb DDR Nvidia 7800 GTX PCI-E, Audigy 2 ZSCH Products Yoke, Pedals and Throttle Quadrant[/font color

Ed,I will defer to your expertise in this regard. You know much more about panels than I do.-Rick

I mainly use 2D cockpits, but the FSX demo has taught me how good VCs can be .... even the default ones :-eek.However, it would have been nice to keep the 2D side views, but that's life :).

>Please, pardon my ignorance. I am a complete newbie to these>forums, so I am not understanding what is meant by a 2D panel>side view. I certainly can look out the side windows of the>aircraft in FSX when using a 2d panel, can't I? Or is>something else meant?>>I was able to look out the side windows in the Baron and the>Beaver and in an imported Cessna 172.>>Ralph>Hi Ralph,Ok, as I stated earlier, I made very small addon(panel.cfg file available here on avsim) which made Jean-Pierre Langer's and Arne Bartels' excellent high quality 2D Photoreal FS2002 Beaver panel with the same quality sideviews based on photos by Larry Smith(available here on avsim), compatible with John L. Woodwards freeware Beaver for FS2004. John L. Woodwards Beaver comes with a VC only, so something to keep in mind is that many freeware aircrafts, at least at this point in time, do not even have a VC. Although I will say that it seems to me that more freeware guys do seem to be doing them. Still, there are a lot of people that, for various reasons, prefer and are only concerned with having a 2D Panel.Anyway, here are screenshots of John's Beaver with the panel and the panel.cfg for FS2004 installed in FSX.http://forums.avsim.net/user_files/154817.jpghttp://forums.avsim.net/user_files/154818.jpgDoes that work? Sure, and not too bad since John's Beaver has a VC.Here's the shots with the aircraft installed exactly the same way in FS9. I'll mention that the VC is still available and fully functional with this configuration, I just made it so that the 2D Panel AND sideviews are available as well(you have to make it in such a way that the vc is not visible when viewing a 2D sideview).http://forums.avsim.net/user_files/154819.jpghttp://forums.avsim.net/user_files/154820.jpgPretty nice sideviews eh? :)Now, in FSX if an aircraft is made without a VC will it work? Yes, but you'll just get a view of total open air, which is less immersive than if the maker included sideviews. Not all 2D Panel makers include 2D sideviews either but they are nice when included. Now I guess they aren't even an option.Ralph, I hope the screenshots help to show you and others who might not understand what this is about, to now be able to understand what this change does. Aircrafts will still work and you can still have a functional Photoreal 2D forward panel, but apparently Photoreal 2D sideviews will not work.Hope that helps,Jimmy Richards

What you're seeing is the inside of the virtual cockpit as opposed to a typically photoreal image that is preferred by most people that would rather use the normal 2d panel instead of the virtual cockpit.The big problem is that in most cases, the side view you see using the VC is nowhere near as good as you would see when a photoreal 2d image is displayed. One reason for this is that VC is part of the aircraft model and in the past the members of the community that create add-ons have tended to specialize; flight dynamics, panels, aircraft model etc. This gives you the user, the freedom to download any particular aircraft, and mate it to your favourite panel. To get really nicely detailed side views will require evermore complex VC's with ever larger texture files........and we know where that could lead to :-(Now, things are going to get a bit complicated, to say the least!As Mike (aka: Taildragger) has stated, they (FS dev team) had a choice and the choice they made was to introduce a new camera/view system that includes lots of new and no doubt usefull features but they simply didn't have time to develop it to also include the old "Fixed window" settings used in FS9 for things like the side views.From my own point of view as a panel designer, I'm seriously unhappy at the loss of side views (maybe almost as unhappy as you Ed!), HOWEVER, the fact that we can now have easily added multiple forward views (like for landing view, First Officer, zoomed in etc) and be able to cycle through them using a single keystroke, is helping to make up for this. Multiple set camera views in the VC is another nice new touch.DreamfleetGreatest Airliners - DC-8Greatest Airliners - 727 Whisperjethttp://www.dreamfleet2000.com/gfx/images/F...BANNER_PAUL.jpg

Just for the record, I like the new camera system so far and since I never use the 2D panel this isn't an issue for me. While I feel for the guys that are losing the side views, Mike stated why they are not an option. I'm sure there will be other things that people will find are gone, but hopefully they will find another feature that makes up for it.Look at it this way, it was rumored that 2D panels would be gone altogether, but they are still there, so that is something for the 2D people to be happy about.Regards, MichaelKDFWhttp://www.calvirair.com/mcpics/ambanner.jpg