Jump to content

Sign in to follow this  
ComSimPilot

Why scenery developers focus on MSFS instead of P3D?

Recommended Posts

2 minutes ago, virtuali said:

You would have had a point, if GSX sales slowed down like airports sales did.

Well, they didn't ( to a point, there aren't so many users left to sell GSX to ) and, in fact, when P3D V5 just came out, we noticed a SURGE in GSX sales. GSX is of course entirely dependent from the Addon Manger and more importantly Couatl, and you can "read on the web" far worse wrong things about Couatl than the Addon Manager.

So no, your theory the *airport* sales were slowed down by the usage of the Addon Manager, doesn't hold any merit. And by what kind of coincidence users decided to hate the Addon Manager JUST after MSFS was announced ? We used the Addon Manager since the FS9 era, why sales started to go down only in 2019 ?

And, you really think we developers don't talk to each other ? Do you really think I would openly say our sales slowed down, if I didn't knew, first hand, that other developers sales has slowed down even more and, guess what, it all started after E3 2019 ? 

Look, I don't doubt that sales overall slowed down post E3 announcement. There were plenty of people around here who said they weren't buying anything for P3D until MSFS came out. I personally decided to go the other way, but that's just me - I suspect the majority did hold onto their wallets whilst waiting to see what MSFS was like.

What I'm really objecting to here is the claim by others that because your sales have gone down and/or you've stopped developing for P3D, the whole P3D addon market is permanently dead. How it fairs in the medium term depends on how well Prepr3d prospers after the initial rush of excitement for MSFS potentially dies down. There's lots of variables - how strong is the Prepar3d v5.1 release? How are the MSFS sales actually going? (remember Flight) - is it economically viable for MS long-term once every casual gamer has downloaded on gamepass and had a look at their house? Does MSFS actually get "study-level" (hate that word) airliners, and if so on what time frame.

I don't think anyone can answer those questions accurately. I'm sticking with P3D as my main platform for now, maybe that will change one day, but as of September 2020 it's the best sim for my needs..  

 

 

 

  • Like 1
  • Upvote 2

Rob

Sim rig: Intel Core i9 9900K @ 5GHz, Asus ROG Maximus XI Code, MSI 2080 Ti, GSkill DDR4 32 GB, NZXT Kraken. 

Current sims: P3D v5, MSFS, X-plane 11, Aerofly FS2 and DCS. 

 xdQCeNi.jpg   puHyX98.jpg

"There are three simple rules for making a smooth landing. Unfortunately, no one knows what they are."

Share this post


Link to post
3 hours ago, Skywolf said:

Flight sim is still a niche product and developers gotta eat also.  Some of these addons do take time.  Do you see any major developers making products for FS2004 or FS2002 these days? 

Of course those sims were released 17 and 19 years ago, respectively, P3d v5 was released just a few months ago. Also, it's not just the potential reality that developers will stop making products for P3d, it the developers that were very close to releasing products for P3d and shelved those products when MSFS was released, pulling the rug out from under its customers.

Share this post


Link to post

Most of those around here seem to want developers focusing more on P3D rather than MSFS addons, which is fine given this is the P3D forum. Judgement in the MSFS forum certainly would be contrary.

I did not belong to those who stopped buying P3D addons a year ago but went on and enjoyed what appeared and fit my need and used it during that year. However, now that MSFS is released, and I *love* it for what I do with the simulator and I see addon developer embracing it, I confess I stopped putting any further money onto it and only buy MSFS addons (including Umberto's O'Hare).

This doesn't mean I uninstalled P3D (and XP and AF) and its addons, and I don't see a reason to do so (even more as I still need it for testing in a few projects), but otherwise I clearly feel MSFS will be the future within another year, if not earlier - like it or not.

Kind regards, Michael

  • Like 3

MSFS, P3D Professional 5, AeroflyFS2, XP11; Beta tester of SimStarter, SPAD.neXt, and FS-FlightControl

Intel i7-6700K 4.0 GHz / Asus MAXIMUS VIII RANGER / Kingston 32 GB DDR4 / Samsung SSD M.2 500 GB + Samsung SSD 1 TB + Intel SSD 500 GB + WD HD 6 TB / EVGA GTX 1080Ti 11 GB / LG 34UM95 3440 x 1440 /  XTOP/Saitek hardware panel / HP Reverb / Win 10/64

 

 

Share this post


Link to post

 

Quote

There were plenty of people around here who said they weren't buying anything for P3D until MSFS came out. I personally decided to go the other way, but that's just me - I suspect the majority did hold onto their wallets whilst waiting to see what MSFS was like.

Exactly, now you finally agree with me: the majority took a different direction than you did. That doesn't mean I agree with them and I think MSFS is "better" than P3D. But as a commercial developer, I must go where the majority goes. 

I'm a developer and, from a developer point of view, P3D is still right now the most powerful platform to develop on. However, it's a professional platform ( that's why is more powerful ), and that comes with the complete freedom to do anything, since one customer might require DirectX, another might require complex multi-screen setups, another might require VR, another requires complex network interface with defense standard, and P3D delivers ALL of that, all at the same time. With that freedom, it comes also more complexity, because a professional software, in the real world, is supposed to be installed professionally, with very strict requirements on what the customer system will look like, and most of the time you provide the PC, P3D and your product to the customer, so you can be sure it *will* work. 

MSFS is simpler, there's less freedom in the SDK, and some of these limitations are due to the upcoming Xbox version, so I'm sure many users might decide to stick with P3D for a long time, because they won't accept the boundaries of what you can do with the sim, due to limitations imposed by a platform ( Xbox) they never use.

But how airports fit into all of this ? You asked for more simplicity in airports ! You suggested we should get rid of the Addon Manager, which basically means stop using the features that make P3D "P3D". So, incidentally, your decision to stop buying our products because we supported P3D too much ( we used feature only P3D has, to add features to the sceneries nobody else has ), if it's really shared by many, might just be what will *cause* us moving towards MSFS even faster. The simpler platform, with more users, with the simpler airports that are "just" airports, just like you wanted them to be.

No, nobody can foresee the future. It might be still be possible for MS to screw up MSFS, they might decide the Azure servers are too expensive to be sustainable with just the MS Marketplace cut they get ( what we consider "very good sales", might be peanuts to them ), the Xbox version might end up being too complex for the average Xbox user. That can happen, or not.

The issue I see with P3D 5.1 is that what many users would like to see, is another improvement in graphic, which I think is unreasonable to expect in a .1 version, but developers are asking for stability, first and foremost. DX12 is so complex that I'm not even sure Microsoft knows everything about it.

Don't you find odd that MSFS came out with DX11, considering DX12 was already out at least a year before MSFS development started ? MSFS *should* have been the living advertisement for DX12 performance promises, so it's very strange Asobo didn't used it and Microsoft didn't *ask* Asobo to use it in a more pressing way.

Fact is, DX12 in P3D V5 came with some benefits, and a big full bag of pain too. We can only hope LM will work more on the stability side of things.

This thread opened with a question: why developers are focusing on MSFS, instead of doing more for P3D ? I gave some answers, which provided some background about how sales are going, that doesn't mean I think P3D overall is "dead". It has always been sold and advertised as a professional training product, so I doubt its feasibility for that mission will change a tiny bit, depending on how many new 3rd party airports you'll see being made for it.

Edited by virtuali
  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
7 minutes ago, virtuali said:

This thread opened with a question: why developers are focusing on MSFS, instead of doing more for P3D ? I gave some answers, which provided some background about were sales are going, that doesn't mean I think P3D overall is "dead".

Nah, you finally agree with me. 😉

I don't think we've actually been disagreeing too much here. I'm reacting to people who are reading too much into your comments, taking them to mean that P3D is dead as a platform which you obviously don't agree with, as per your statement.

I think for established devs, there is a lot to be said for branching out into MSFS as it's a new and potentially very large market. The problem is that I'd also suggest that developers don't abandon, or appear to abandon, Prepar3d along the way. Most users are pretty loyal to their favorite addon devs, but they also have long memories (see: the anger around here towards MS when MSFS was first announced). It's possible to stay positively and actively engaged with P3D while also developing products for MSFS. 

  • Upvote 1

Rob

Sim rig: Intel Core i9 9900K @ 5GHz, Asus ROG Maximus XI Code, MSI 2080 Ti, GSkill DDR4 32 GB, NZXT Kraken. 

Current sims: P3D v5, MSFS, X-plane 11, Aerofly FS2 and DCS. 

 xdQCeNi.jpg   puHyX98.jpg

"There are three simple rules for making a smooth landing. Unfortunately, no one knows what they are."

Share this post


Link to post
6 hours ago, OzWhitey said:

 

So addon developers - keep developing for P3D. I believe that if you build something of quality, there are plenty of us that will still support you.

I totally agree 


Francisco Aguiar

Share this post


Link to post

I think it is unfair and unrealistic to compare the sales of MSFS add-ons during the first month of its release with the P3D sales the same period or even a longer period. Consider the following:

1) MSFS was anticipated and previewed for more than a year on a very wide audience marketed by Microsoft. Did LM had the same marketing target and capabilities ? Not even close. 
2) MSFS was the successor of FSX. The most popular flight simulator
3) Just buying MSFS deluxe set me back 120$. This is the cost of many P3D add-on sceneries combined.
4) MSFS attracts a much much wider audience than P3D. Just look how many mainstream youtubers have done videos for MSFS. How many of them did any video for P3D? none
5) MSFS audience attracts an incredibly huge number of people who experiment with a flight simulator for the first time and for many - I will dare to say for most of them- the selling point is not the avionics and IFR procedures, but the scenery-world realism. I seriously doubt that this audience will keep buying MSFS sceneries for years to come after they try a handful of them. These are not the typical loyal fans who fly IFR flights and desperately need quality add-on sceneries. It can easily be people who want to see their local airport and have never bought an airport scenery before. Statistics should not be based on this audience because its unreliable. 
6) MSFS scenery add-ons was just released. No new P3D airports released during the same time to compare. 

To sum up, developers can't possibly know the dynamics of MSFS scenery sales. To halt their P3D development and hope people will keep buying MSFS sceneries with the same pace, I think its not smart and certainly disappoints us who wait for new P3D sceneries. 

Edited by ComSimPilot
  • Upvote 1

Simulators: Prepar3D v5 Academic | X-Plane 1111.50+ | DCS  World  Open Beta MSFS 2020 Premium Deluxe | 
PC Hardware: Dell U3417W Intel i9 10900K | msi RTX 2080 Ti  Gaming X Trio msi MPG Z490 Gaming Edge Wifi | G.Skill 32GB 3600Mhz CL16 | Samsung 970 EVO Plus+860 EVO+850 EVO x 1TB, Western Digital Black Caviar Black x 6 TB Corsair RM1000i Corsair H115i Platinum Fractal Design Define S2 Gunmetal |
Flight Controls: Fulcrum One Yoke Virpil VPC WarBRD Base Virpil VPC MongoosT-50CM Grip, Thrustmaster Warthog+F/A-18C Grip Thrustmaster TPR Rudder Pedals | Virtual Fly TQ6+Throttle Quadrant | Sismo B737 Max Gear Lever | TrackIR 5Monsterteck Desk Mounts |
My fleet catalog: Link                                                                                                                                                       

Share this post


Link to post
20 minutes ago, ComSimPilot said:

I think it is unfair and unrealistic to compare the sales of MSFS add-ons during the first month of its release with the P3D sales the same period or even a longer period. Consider the following:

All your points just made my point. Of course they are all valid and they all happened, and we expected exactly that.

But does it matter ? No, it doesn't, all those are perfectly valid and understandable reason why MSFS attracts more users. But that's PRECISELY the point, we need new users and we also need users that left years ago, first when FSX was frozen and the Aces team was disbanded, and then when MS Flight failed, because they tried to launch a Marketplace without 3rd parties.

Regardless of the reason ( I'd say *because* of them ), the facts are:

- A large international airport that is made specifically for airliner operations IS going to outsell the P3D version, the simulator that is supposedly best at IFR and currently has the best airliners. Do you expect sales will stop/slow down when proper airliners will eventually come to MSFS ? I highly doubt it.

- That airport has a very strong competitor, the handcrafted version that comes in the two Premium version, including the cheaper one, which costs 30$ more than the standard, and for that price difference offers other 5 airplanes and other 4 handcrafted airports. We had to compete with a single airport priced at 19$. This means MSFS users are NOT worried about paying for an even better version, if they care for an airport, which makes them better potential customers than some might assume.

Is this all because of Microsoft marketing machine ? Of course it is but, again, does it matter ? Microsoft plays to its own strengths here, that's precisely why we are supporting MSFS without any doubts, and never had any doubts since day one, even if the MSFS SDK of last January was borderline useless, and in certain areas is still severely lacking.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post

Umberto I don't disagree with you on the fact that MSFS is more popular due to all this reasons. I would be blind to not see that and I believe all the numbers you presented. So what you say is that scenery developers will stop developing for P3D and only sell for MSFS from now on, waiting and hoping that airliners will be released at some point? 

Let's say 10 MSFS airports are released every day. What makes you think that people will keep buying airports to fly a very limited default aircraft simulation? Especially airliner operations airports? P3D has a huge amount of good aircraft compared to MSFS. When PMDG, FSL, Majestic, Leonardo, A2A, etc etc. make their aircraft versions for MSFS, we are talking years to come. In my opinion anyone among you top scenery developers who will be keep releasing new P3D scenery will gather all this thirst for new P3D scenery that is out there. 

The market share for P3D customers is there, it won't disappear because MSFS arrived. People don't buy FSDT KORD in P3D to fly from/to in default aircraft. They buy it because they have aircraft to fly there realistically. And these people will keep wanting to do so in other airports if scenery developers chose to develop. And I may understand this initial wave of MSFS purchases is big, but I guess it is P3D customers who made you and other developers have the profit to develop all these years, so I guess its not a so tiny miniscule market that is not worth it anymore. 

Edited by ComSimPilot
  • Upvote 1

Simulators: Prepar3D v5 Academic | X-Plane 1111.50+ | DCS  World  Open Beta MSFS 2020 Premium Deluxe | 
PC Hardware: Dell U3417W Intel i9 10900K | msi RTX 2080 Ti  Gaming X Trio msi MPG Z490 Gaming Edge Wifi | G.Skill 32GB 3600Mhz CL16 | Samsung 970 EVO Plus+860 EVO+850 EVO x 1TB, Western Digital Black Caviar Black x 6 TB Corsair RM1000i Corsair H115i Platinum Fractal Design Define S2 Gunmetal |
Flight Controls: Fulcrum One Yoke Virpil VPC WarBRD Base Virpil VPC MongoosT-50CM Grip, Thrustmaster Warthog+F/A-18C Grip Thrustmaster TPR Rudder Pedals | Virtual Fly TQ6+Throttle Quadrant | Sismo B737 Max Gear Lever | TrackIR 5Monsterteck Desk Mounts |
My fleet catalog: Link                                                                                                                                                       

Share this post


Link to post

Great input in this thread. Umberto. Highly respect your contributions to our community. Your products and your forum posts. One thing I would question. You claim your airport sales are not as high as say gsx. That makes sense. But at the same time when I look at what you have released for P3d lately it hasn’t been much. Now I’m biased typically to North American airports. But other than ord not too much lately. And also many of your airports haven’t been updated in ages. So it’s reasonable sales have slowed down there.  Not trying to be critical. Just a fact 

  • Like 2

9700k | Maximus XI Hero| 32gb DDR4 3000 |EVGA FTW3 3090 | 1tb EVO Plus 970 and 500GB M2+3TB HDD | 43" Samsung X60R 4k and 2  22" monitors | Corsair RM1000x |  240MM AIO.| MFG Crosswind | T16000M Stick | Saitek Throttle Quad | Skalarki MCDU and FCU | Saitek Radio Panel

Share this post


Link to post
3 hours ago, virtuali said:

All your points just made my point. Of course they are all valid and they all happened, and we expected exactly that.

<SNIP>

Hey thanks for the indepth overview of what's happening in the market, It's great to get some info from the horse's mouth so to speak and not have to rely on speculation and hearsay.

Also a big thanks for how GSX functions at the back end.

Cheers R

  • Like 1

Ryzen 2700X clocked to 4.2 Ghz, 32 GB ram, Samsung 1 x 1 TB NVMe 970 and 2 x 1 TB SSD 850 Pro raided, Nvida 1070 Ti clocked to 2 Ghz

P3D 4.5.14, Orbx Global, Vector and more, lotsa planes too.

Catch my vids on Oz Sim Pilot, catch my screen pics @ Screenshots and Artwork

Share this post


Link to post
12 hours ago, virtuali said:

That's price on Simmarket, which includes VAT that in some countries can be quite high, and a possibly a not very favorable exchange rate. The highest we ever sold KORD for P3D on our site, was 34$ so yes, the MSFS version IS cheaper, but it also lacks many features:

- No docking systems

- No double jetways

- No active info panels

- No working monitors showing AI departures/arrivals

- No DirectX rendering, so no jetway numbers, no custom jetway logos.

So, the lower price reflect the fact the scenery is less featured. If we released *that* version for P3D, at a lower price, we would have been shamed for becoming like insert the new of your favorite low-cost airport developer here

And, the lower price is because we must also align to the prices of other large airports on the MS Marketplace, since most developers assumed the MS Marketplace would bring lots of new users because the increased exposure to add-ons to a whole new generation of possible customers, and this demanded lower prices, even at a cost of losing some high-end features ( we know DirectX rendering will likely never be allowed on MSFS, for example ). 

There's no "LM Marketplace" to speak of so, not many chances for us to lower prices there, surely not for a brand new product.

Just a question Umberto, does that meant that when MSFS version of KORD will have an upgrade price once MSFS SDK is complete and you are able to add more features?

 


Hendrik

Share this post


Link to post

Well, I don't know if I'm worried. Even if the MSFS version of an airport keeps outselling the P3D 10 to 1 in the long run, I still believe we will get a P3D version, as a conversion sounds relatively easy. Heck, some devs are even still releasing for FSX.


Best regards, Dimitrios

Share this post


Link to post

MSFS may end up like FSX a lot of new gamers came on board as the sim was well publicised but when the novelty wore of they left for the next big game, on steam the most number of users in play in 24hrs on FSX since release on steam less than 6,000. You may see more for MSFS for the first year but when it settles it will show what a niche product flight sim is. unlike gamers that can have 500,000 in a game.  


i9 10900K\ASUS APEX MB \ MSI RTX 2080Ti GAMINGX TRIO \ M.2  Samsung 970 EVO Plus 1TB C Drive \ 2+1TB Samsung 850 EVO \ 2TB BarraCuba \ 32GB G.SKILL Z DDR4 3600MHZ \ Windows 10 Home\ ASUS 28" 4K monitor\ 4TB Portable Drive\P3DV5.1

Raymond Fry.

PMDG_Banner_747_Enthusiast.jpg

Share this post


Link to post

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
  • Tom Allensworth,
    Founder of AVSIM Online


  • Flight Simulation's Premier Resource!

    AVSIM is a free service to the flight simulation community. AVSIM is staffed completely by volunteers and all funds donated to AVSIM go directly back to supporting the community. Your donation here helps to pay our bandwidth costs, emergency funding, and other general costs that crop up from time to time. Thank you for your support!

    Click here for more information and to see all donations year to date.
  • Donation Goals

    AVSIM's 2020 Fundraising Goal

    Donate to our annual general fundraising goal. This donation keeps our doors open and providing you service 24 x 7 x 365. Your donation here helps to pay our bandwidth costs, emergency funding, and other general costs that crop up from time to time. We reset this goal every new year for the following year's goal.


    39%
    $9,950.00 of $25,000.00 Donate Now
×
×
  • Create New...