I’ve recently moved on from VFR to IFR in the Grand Caravan. And I have a few questions I’m hoping someone can help with. Sorry if this is too much in one post... but it’s all related to trying to get a bit of realism.

1. When doing an ILS approach, at what point should you normally disengage the AP and hand fly the landing - assuming you can see the runway?

2. My understanding is that commercial real-world flight plans typically don’t include the runway assignments and therefore the approach procedure. ATC or dispatchers will advise those before takeoff, on route, or on approach.  Is that true?

3. Using the MSFS in-game flight planner, if I plan an IFR flight including an ILS approach, the in-game ATC seems to work well. It was providing altitude step down adjustments near the final approach to get me on a path to intercept the glide slope. However, if I create a plan without a runway assignment (see #2) on the arrival end, the ATC seems useless if not dangerous. I tried adding an approach in the G1000 as I got near my destination, and ATC was advising me to climb to FL140 and giving me heading vectors that made no sense. I was forced to ignore ATC and follow my AP. Am I doing something wrong or is the ATC just broken?

4. Will Pilot2ATC work better to either assign you an approach or handle one you request better than the in-game ATC? Is it more realistic?

5. I tried doing some flight plans with SimBrief and it doesn’t seem to have the same options as the in game flight planner to use low altitude airways. At least I couldn’t see it. Even if you specify an altitude of 5000ft, it still uses high altitude airways. Am I missing something? Or maybe it’s only good for airliners?

6.  Again with SimBrief, even if you include runways, it doesn’t give you fixes or waypoints that will Vector you into the ILS. And it seemed if I imported the SimBrief plan into MSFS and used the in-game planner to add the ILS approach or even assign a ramp, it screwed up the route. And of course, if I don’t add an ILS approach, ATC is broken (#3).

Bottom line... I must be missing something, because I know a lot of simmers use SimBrief or other tools that use SimBrief but it doesn’t seem as good as the in-game flight planner. Any advice?

I haven’t got time right now to answer all your points but your issue with SimBrief and MSFS missing data is because the Sim uses nav data from NavBlue which isn’t the best.  For serious IFR you really need check out navigraph but it is payware.

1. Mainly pilot decision. You may want to hand fly a whole ILS approach so disengaging the AP very early. Usually I disengage at 1000 ft ground. Commercial pilot may have corporate rules to follow.

2. No runway assignment. You normally listen to destination ATIs when approaching the airport to know the runway in usage and load (but not activate) the desired procedure. Often ATC will inquire which procedure you prefer. They will often warn you in advance with an « expect rnav/ils xx » sentence so you can load the appropriate one. This make sense to wait until arrival as runway in usage may change with the wind or closure. ATC may also offer you a limited choice due to other aircraft sequencing.

3. broken

4. No idea, i was using Vox with p3d

5. Simbrief propose several routing and you can select the one you prefer. If there is no low level route proposed, it may be because nobody asked one in recent time. Simbrief propose the most used routing to my knowledge. If you know the route you want to use, you can type it.

6. Vectoring to final is done by ATC (Approach= Tracon position in Usa, Terminal in Canada or tower if no approach/terminal). Normal it is not in flight plan. If I fly for practice without bodering about ATC, I select myself vectors that give me the usual 30 degrees intercept to final, often after a previous vector at plus/minus 90 degrees.

Thanks for posting this. I'm interested in the answers as well.

6 hours ago, kama2004 said:

1. Mainly pilot decision. You may want to hand fly a whole ILS approach so disengaging the AP very early. Usually I disengage at 1000 ft ground. Commercial pilot may have corporate rules to follow.

2. No runway assignment. You normally listen to destination ATIs when approaching the airport to know the runway in usage and load (but not activate) the desired procedure. Often ATC will inquire which procedure you prefer. They will often warn you in advance with an « expect rnav/ils xx » sentence so you can load the appropriate one. This make sense to wait until arrival as runway in usage may change with the wind or closure. ATC may also offer you a limited choice due to other aircraft sequencing.

3. broken

4. No idea, i was using Vox with p3d

5. Simbrief propose several routing and you can select the one you prefer. If there is no low level route proposed, it may be because nobody asked one in recent time. Simbrief propose the most used routing to my knowledge. If you know the route you want to use, you can type it.

6. Vectoring to final is done by ATC (Approach= Tracon position in Usa, Terminal in Canada or tower if no approach/terminal). Normal it is not in flight plan. If I fly for practice without bodering about ATC, I select myself vectors that give me the usual 30 degrees intercept to final, often after a previous vector at plus/minus 90 degrees.

Thanks. 

The bottom line is that you can’t properly simulate an IFR flight. The only way to get the in-game ATC to play along is to do a flight plan that includes runway assignments and approaches before you start. Which is unrealistic. 

i guess the thing to do is plan the whole IFR flight (including ILS approaches) and pretend you’re getting that approach assigned by ATC upon arrival.

It’s a shame really. Would be nice if they programmed it so you were assigned an approach during flight. 

I may try Pilot2ATC and see how that works. 

2 hours ago, Virtual-Chris said:

 

It’s a shame really. Would be nice if they programmed it so you were assigned an approach during flight. 

Vox ATC is working that way by assigning a procedure to you on arrival. And a menu allow you to request a change which is one of the few interraction with Vox with the keyboard. My wild guess is that it is under development for Prepar3d. 

Or if you want human interraction, you can try PilotEdge service which is very close to reality and bring more diversity. 

3 minutes ago, kama2004 said:

Vox ATC is working that way by assigning a procedure to you on arrival. And a menu allow you to request a change which is one of the few interraction with Vox with the keyboard. My wild guess is that it is under development for Prepar3d. 

Or if you want human interraction, you can try PilotEdge service which is very close to reality and bring more diversity. 

Thanks. I’ll look at Vox ATC as well. Does it assign an approach based on wind? Is it smart enough to know the typical runways used for landings vs takeoffs?

Edited October 4, 20205 yr by Virtual-Chris

13 hours ago, Virtual-Chris said:

I’ve recently moved on from VFR to IFR in the Grand Caravan. And I have a few questions I’m hoping someone can help with. Sorry if this is too much in one post... but it’s all related to trying to get a bit of realism.

1. When doing an ILS approach, at what point should you normally disengage the AP and hand fly the landing 

2. My understanding is that commercial real-world flight plans typically don’t include the runway assignments 

3. Using the MSFS in-game flight planner, if I plan an IFR flight including an ILS approach, the in-game ATC seems to work well.

4. Will Pilot2ATC work better to either assign you an approach or handle one you request better than the in-game ATC? Is it more realistic?

5. I tried doing some flight plans with SimBrief and it doesn’t seem to have the same options as the in game flight planner to use low altitude airways. At least I couldn’t see it. Even if you specify an altitude of 5000ft, it still uses high altitude airways. Am I missing something? Or maybe it’s only good for airliners?

6.  Again with SimBrief, even if you include runways, it doesn’t give you fixes or waypoints that will Vector you into the ILS. And it seemed if I imported the SimBrief plan into MSFS and used the in-game planner to add the ILS approach or even assign a ramp, it screwed up the route. And of course, if I don’t add an ILS approach, ATC is broken (#3).

Bottom line... I must be missing something, because I know a lot of simmers use SimBrief or other tools that use SimBrief but it doesn’t seem as good as the in-game flight planner. Any advice?

1. When you can be arsed to hand fly. Typically after you've intercepted the GS and all you've got to do is stabilise the aircraft at a speed of around 500-650 FPM at or on your V1 +/- 10. and follow the magenta diamond down the ALT Tape.

2. No they don't. Winds change - well, like the wind. You'll typically get a RWY designation at or around the bottom of your SID but that can and does change rapidly depending on the METAR.

3. I can't say for the in-game ATC but I assume it's flawed. Trust your own weather readings, forecasts and, as a consequence, APPR decisions.

4. No idea. Sorry.

5. Check out the Support links in SimBrief - it can do Victor (low) and Jet (high) Airways - but the menu system is a headache.

6. No, it won't - ATC is a little broken in MSFS2020 right now so, it's up to you to do it in the FMC or MCDU after you've PERF INIT'd - winds, weights, APPR and LNGS calcs - you're the Captain! your math, your aircraft, your flight crew and your pax. Trust no-one else with their lives. It's all down to your judgment.

No pressure. 🙂

 

 

 

Edited October 4, 20205 yr by Will Fly For Cheese

With regard to landing and disengaging the autopilot, it would depend on a few things: Mostly what category of landing you were doing, what qualifications/currency the crew had on making those types of landings, and what type of equipment the aeroplane (and the airport runway) was equipped with.

Essentially, the higher the Category number of the landing you are making, the more automated it can be and the more you can let the autopilot do. Category II/III Autolands will let you allow the autopilot to land the thing completely, some Category III-equipped aeroplanes can even keep the thing centred on the rollout and do all the braking and stuff automatically. 

But since you are flying a Cessna Caravan which doesn't have an especially fancy autopilot, you will have to disengage the autopilot and land the thing yourself. In this case, it is essentially up to you when you disengage the autopilot, since you will be probably be monitoring instrument guidance cues anyway, which means there's a good chance that if the aeroplane was stabilised on the approach (as it should be) when you disconnected the autopilot, you shouldn't really have to adjust much to ride the thing in and should only have to flare the thing. But there are sensible rules you can adopt...

For most stuff such as GA aeroplanes like the one you are flying, the airport ILS chart's Decision Height, or its the Missed Approach Point will probably be as late as you want to leave it to go manual. At DH, you either see the runway environment and continue, or you don't see it and you go into a climb having already briefed the MA procedure and had the necessary radio beacons on the standby frequencies, headings set up on the avionics etc, so you know what to do and don't have to fumble around.

A good general rule of thumb for you to follow would be: when you get to Minimums, if you have the Runway in Sight, if it isn't off already, turn the Autopilot Off and then come in to Land. Or, when you get to Minimums, if you Don't Have Runway in Sight, if it isn't off already, turn the Autopilot Off and then Fly your briefed Missed Approach Procedure.

Though you are flying alone, it is also not a bad idea to get into the habit of announcing things you are doing out loud even if you don't have a co-pilot with you, as this reinforces good decision making habits, such as announcing 'A/P off' when you turn the autopilot off, or stating 'runway in sight' when it is, and 'continuing' if you are going to land, etc. 

There are a few exceptions to all the above with really modern equipment, such as using Synthetic Vision systems, HUDs etc, but again these things require qualifications and currency for them to be allowed to be used for landing guidance.

On more thing worth noting (and avoiding) with ILS approaches and Decision Heights/MAPs, is that lots of pilots make the mistake of thinking that 'going missed' will for some reason mean you must pour on the power and go into a crazy climb out in a really dramatic fashion. Well sure, if there happens to be a bunch of skyscrapers at the other end of the runway, then yes you might have to do that, but since this is unlikely and - having briefed it - you will know what the missed approach procedure is prior to having attempted the landing, all you have to do to go missed, is to not actually touch down, and you can even briefly do that if necessary. There is nothing wrong with simply holding the aeroplane at fifty feet or whatever and flying along the runway a bit whilst getting some speed up before going into the climb out for the missed approach procedure. For some reason many pilots seem to forget this and instantly haul back on the stick, which is not a great idea when you're down at 'coming over the fence' speed. 

This is especially true on a turbine-equipped aeroplane, where it will lag a bit even if you slam the throttle wide open.

 

Edited October 4, 20205 yr by Chock

28 minutes ago, Chock said:

"Though you are flying alone, it is also not a bad idea to get into the habit of announcing things you are doing out loud even if you don't have a co-pilot with you, as this reinforces good decision making habits, such as announcing 'A/P off' when you turn the autopilot off, or stating 'runway in sight' when it is, and 'continuing' if you are going to land, etc. "

Lol, i tried that years ago, one evening with my wife being around, although at first it cracked her up, she wasn't having it eventually. As i still continued she warned if the next thing is wearing a captains hat along with that, she's walking, back to living with her mother.

 

 

10 hours ago, Chock said:

There is nothing wrong with simply holding the aeroplane at fifty feet or whatever and flying along the runway a bit whilst getting some speed up...

Now that appeals to me, especially in a widebody  However, I suspect I'd have gone missed far higher... unless the sim has a truck drive on to the runway from nowhere.. (Unlikely, being FSX:SE in my case..) .

Pilot2atc is generally more realistic than the sim, and you can ask Dave (the creator) questions in his dedicated forum on avsim.

For the most part, I’ve always selected an approach when filing the flight plan, but I know there’s a setting that determines whether or not the pilot sets the runways/SIDs/STARs, so I’m pretty sure it can assign it to you if you want.

On 10/4/2020 at 5:28 PM, Virtual-Chris said:

Thanks. I’ll look at Vox ATC as well. Does it assign an approach based on wind? Is it smart enough to know the typical runways used for landings vs takeoffs?

Wind : Yes

The typical runway : no

On 10/4/2020 at 3:50 AM, Virtual-Chris said:

Bottom line... I must be missing something, because I know a lot of simmers use SimBrief or other tools that use SimBrief but it doesn’t seem as good as the in-game flight planner. Any advice?

Yes the game is kind of borked on the in-game planner and trying to load a simbrief plan has varying success. I find that the sim will drop you on the runway and delete the SID and STAR. Also if you don't pick the approach then it is a mixed bag. I have had the Asobo G100 send me all the way back to departure after selecting an approach. 

Until the big update on aircraft and avionics the best method of getting avionics and atc to cooperate is just use the in game flight planner making sure to select the approach you want.