1 minute ago, ShawnG said:

False. 

Nobody thinks there's nothing wrong with the product.  Some people deal better with issues than others, some people are more than willing to take the bad with the good, some people have a more adult reaction to disappointment than others.  Some people recognize how difficult a task it is to try to recreate the entire world, its weather patterns, aerodynamic physics, and avionics for a series of different aircraft all in one software product, at a reasonable price, and taking into account the disparate interest and ability levels of its customers.  some people have a broad interest in aircraft beyond just automated procedural IFR.  Some people point out its flaws rationally while NOT exaggerating them.  I haven't come across anybody, though, who think there's nothing wrong with it, or any other flight sim product that has ever been produced.

False - some people do.

Regards

bs

20 minutes ago, Virtual-Chris said:

Agreed. But a lot of people here think there’s nothing wrong with this product. It’s bizarre. 

I don't believe I've heard anyone say there's NOTHING wrong with the product.  I think you'll find that most people here recognize the product for what it is, and has determined that the things that ARE wrong with the product don't warrant the hyperbole filled, dramatic overreactions and nearly endless series of posts of people who must in detail explain why they are "leaving the building".  Even when someone posts a nice screenshot, these drama queens have to drop from the sky and insert their current "rant of the day".

To which I respond....Just go.....No one's stopping you.    

I don't ever remember walking into a McDonalds to simply exclaim to the workers and other patrons there why I am "done with McDonalds"  and am now deciding to go back to Burger King for a year.

So it boggles my mind why people here should think we care why you are leaving MSFS for your "insert previous sim" here.

Go, be well.  And take your drama with you.

And I solemnly swear, I won't go on an XP FSX or P3D forum and spout a rant on why I have switched from those products to MSFS.  Really.  I promise.

Edited October 8, 20205 yr by wthomas33065

17 minutes ago, wthomas33065 said:

I don't believe I've heard anyone say there's NOTHING wrong with the product.  I think you'll find that most people here recognize the product for what it is, and has determined that the things that ARE wrong with the product don't warrant the hyperbole filled, dramatic overreactions and nearly endless series of posts of people who must in detail explain why they are "leaving the building".  Even when someone posts a nice screenshot, these drama queens have to drop from the sky and insert their current "rant of the day".

To which I respond....Just go.....No one's stopping you.    

I don't ever remember walking into a McDonalds to simply exclaim to the workers and other patrons there why I am "done with McDonalds"  and am now deciding to go back to Burger King for a year.

So it boggles my mind why people here should think we care why you are leaving MSFS for your "insert previous sim" here.

Go, be well.  And take your drama with you.

And I solemnly swear, I won't go on an XP FSX or P3D forum and spout a rant on why I have switched from those products to MSFS.  Really.  I promise.

I don't know who's more dramatic here though... those raising legitimate issues and being frustrated, or those defending the product.  Look at your own post... a perfect example of over dramatization.

3 minutes ago, ShawnG said:

False. 

Nobody thinks there's nothing wrong with the product.  Some people deal better with issues than others, some people are more than willing to take the bad with the good, some people have a more adult reaction to disappointment than others.  Some people recognize how difficult a task it is to try to recreate the entire world, its weather patterns, aerodynamic physics, and avionics for a series of different aircraft all in one software product, at a reasonable price, and taking into account the disparate interest and ability levels of its customers.  some people have a broad interest in aircraft beyond just automated procedural IFR.  Some people point out its flaws rationally while NOT exaggerating them.  I haven't come across anybody, though, who think there's nothing wrong with it, or any other flight sim product that has ever been produced.

He was right. There are a lot here who claim that it is all good. And people pointing to the issues they are experiencing got flamed. And many times by the same people.
Pointing to issues has nothing to do with exaggerating. 

They are people who bought this with the expectation of enjoying all ac at release. Small issues, sure . But MSFS goes beyond that. Why ? Financial decisions with deadlines . Not thoroughly tested everything.

It has nothing to do with how difficult it is to recreate the whole world ; it has to do with Asobo not having had the time to make a solid base. And that releasing extra scenery packages seem to be more important ( roadmap ) than fixing the base first.

If you would have bought a new tv that has a lot of features according to the manufacturer and 1/3 does not work and 2 updates fixes things but also caused new issues,  Would you accept that and only look at the things that do work or would you bring it back ?

Luckily so many people pointed to issues, over and over again. MS/Asobo is now aware of it very clearly ( beta back ).

MSFS is cheaper than a tv but the intention is to sell extra packages too ( beside free packages ) and gain money on sales from addon developers. And customers are the once that have to pay.....

That it costs just € 60-120 is no justification to release software with a lot of bugs.

If MSFS exists in 5 years than a lot of people will have spent a lot of money. The base has to be strong and balanced to carry all that.

As a customer you have the right to expect that..

4 minutes ago, Virtual-Chris said:

I don't know who's more dramatic here though... those raising legitimate issues and being frustrated, or those defending the product.  Look at your own post... a perfect example of over dramatization.

You yourself opened up a passive aggressive rant on how Microsoft or Asobo can't do anything well...except perhaps lighting.    Please don't even talk to me about over-exaggeration and over dramatization.  Nuff said.

34 minutes ago, ShawnG said:

False. 

Nobody thinks there's nothing wrong with the product.  Some people deal better with issues than others, some people are more than willing to take the bad with the good, some people have a more adult reaction to disappointment than others.  Some people recognize how difficult a task it is to try to recreate the entire world, its weather patterns, aerodynamic physics, and avionics for a series of different aircraft all in one software product, at a reasonable price, and taking into account the disparate interest and ability levels of its customers.  some people have a broad interest in aircraft beyond just automated procedural IFR.  Some people point out its flaws rationally while NOT exaggerating them.  I haven't come across anybody, though, who think there's nothing wrong with it, or any other flight sim product that has ever been produced.

I think one of the challenges this community needs to come to terms with is that there are lots of flaws with this product. It was likely rushed to market before it was ready. Every patch introduces new issues while fixing others and it all creates a very frustrating situation.  As you say everyone deals with frustration differently, but my observation is that this community does not deal well with frustrated members.  

We're all in this together and there will be some venting of frustration here. I think the general membership needs not to view it as a personal attack or like we're insulting your first born when we raise issues or vent frustration on these forums.  We're all wanting and wishing to make this product better and this, and other forums are ways to make our voices heard that we are not happy with the current state of affairs.  I would suggest the community would be better served by rallying around frustrated members, supporting them, and not continually badgering them into silence.  This product is not going to get better in the right ways if all we do is line up and thank MS/Asobo for a job well done.

Edited October 8, 20205 yr by Virtual-Chris

1 minute ago, Virtual-Chris said:

I think one of the challenges this community needs to come to terms with is that there are lots of flaws with this product.

Why?

 

Cheers

bs

Just now, bean_sprout said:

Why?

 

Cheers

bs

I explained that in the rest of my post.

2 minutes ago, Virtual-Chris said:

I explained that in the rest of my post.

It works great for me.  So once again why should I be concerned?

bs

I have had one CTD and that was trying to take off in the modded A320 from a scenery intensive location. I could not replicate the error on a subsequent check so could have been something weird in the background - a Windows update downloading, Steam updating another title.

Yes there have been frustrations - as for many Patch 2 was a disaster breaking my install and then the week long redownload of the programme at 500KB/s. But My only frustration and impatience now is wanting more. I want a DC10. I want a F16. I want a C130. I want an Apache Longbow, or a Chinook. Because this is where I want to be doing my virtual flying from now on.

And hey, I haven’t even ventured out on foot yet from any of the airports to explore the world round about!

23 minutes ago, GSalden said:

He was right. There are a lot here who claim that it is all good. And people pointing to the issues they are experiencing got flamed. And many times by the same people.
Pointing to issues has nothing to do with exaggerating...

....If you would have bought a new tv that has a lot of features according to the manufacturer and 1/3 does not work and 2 updates fixes things but also caused new issues,  Would you accept that and only look at the things that do work or would you bring it back ?

1/3 of the sim doesn't work? and you think you aren't exaggerating about that?  while also exaggerating how good you think p3d is?

13 minutes ago, bean_sprout said:

It works great for me.  So once again why should I be concerned?

bs

If it works that perfect for you and you have no issues, why are you in this thread and responding ? Instead of flying 🧐

6 minutes ago, Virtual-Chris said:

would suggest the community would be better served by rallying around frustrated members, supporting them, and not continually badgering them into silence.  

And I would suggest that frustrated members use "official" channels to submit their bug reports and allow the feedback process the time it takes to complete.

AVSIM is NOT an official MSFS channel,  No one here has any say on how MS of Asobo does business.  You are "preaching to the choir".  

In my over 3 decades of using Flight Simulator products, I can tell you hands down, that no one has been more responsive to community feedback than the current development team.  And for that, they are often met with snarky comments, attacks on their character, and accusations of incompetence. 

As a person who works in software development, I find such behavior offensive.  

I also find it disingenuous when people try to compare a 6 week old product with one that has matured.  

I urged you in another post to try FS9 and FSX in their out of the box condition to see just how far we have come.  When you take inflation into play, we are paying less now for MSFS than we have ever paid.  And even with it's bugs, I have not seen a more complete product.  And when everything clicks, it clicks in a way that boggles the mind.

Are there things that need fixing?  Sure.  Did some annoying bugs escape QA?  Yes.  Do they warrant the endless stream of "I'm taking my toys and going home" type posts we see nearly every day?  No.

And do users of MSFS go to FSX, P3D and XP forums to simply toss daggers and grenades at their products?   NO.

All I ask is the same courtesy.  If you have a frustration, and it's a known issue, we get it.   Some of us will even try to help you troubleshoot the issue.   For example, CTD's are more often than not issues with individual workstations and drivers and not widespread problems.   And many here will be happy to help try and see if we can help you out with that.

But if your point is to simply Bemoan the fact that the G1000 is inaccurate in every single post that someone makes.  Or if you claim that because the Autopilot somehow sends you into a death spiral occasionally, the sim is "unflyable" then I suggest you keep your emotions in check.

This is a flight simulator, and the purpose of flight simulators is to help you recover from unforeseen failures.  So when my Grand Caravan's Autopilot decides to kill me, I just figure the guy running the sim wanted to keep me on my toes, and I try to recover and finish the flight.  

It's all about perspective.  If you have a good one, you can find things to enjoy while the bugs are being worked out.  But especially this year, I can only speak for myself, I've had my share of negativity, and I come to these forums to escape that.

1 minute ago, ShawnG said:

1/3 of the sim doesn't work? and you think you aren't exaggerating about that?  while also exaggerating how good you think p3d is?

You replied to things I did not write about MSFS in my reply

Mmmm... glasses will help

Edited October 8, 20205 yr by GSalden

22 minutes ago, Virtual-Chris said:

I think one of the challenges this community needs to come to terms with is that there are lots of flaws with this product. It was likely rushed to market before it was ready. Every patch introduces new issues while fixing others and it all creates a very frustrating situation.  As you say everyone deals with frustration differently, but my observation is that this community does not deal well with frustrated members.  

should we?  frustration is a natural human emotion, but it's one you deal with in private.  yeah, you could have an enormous public meltdown when McD's messes up your burger order, but you won't get any sympathy from others in the restaurant, and you'll probably end up on youtube being laughed at.  here, we should have rational discussions not emotional ones.