2 minutes ago, Phantoms said:

Speaking of KASE, last week MSFS ATC flew me into a mountain on a night approach there after a 2 hr. flight.

Even with real world ATC, and certainly with MSFS ATC, trust...but VERIFY 😉

 

Thanks, cwburnett, for finally answering my question.

Dave Hinson

Some NavBlue approaches might not appear because of naming conventions, but many RNAV approaches at small to mid-size US airports are just plain missing. My home airport, KELM, has 4 WAAS RNAV approaches to named runways, and two ILS approaches. In default NavBlue data, all 4 RNAV approaches are missing entirely, as is one of the two ILS approaches. The one ILS that is present in the sim contains waypoint names that were changed in 2014.

I did an RNAV approach to an airport in Maryland with NavBlue that was present in the sim, but the IF to FAF routing did not correspond to the current chart. I did some research, and found that the approach routing in the sim was from a previous version of the approach that was modified in 2016.

If the NavBlue data is an adaptation of an FMS database they provide for a real aircraft, I could understand why some procedures are missing. I manage database subscriptions for a 6-aircraft corporate flight department. 3 of our aircraft are CRJs with Proline 4 avionics, and our current subscription contains no RNAV approaches for any airports with runways less than 5000 feet long. In this case, it is a technical limitation. The FMS has a limited amount of NVRAM memory. While that memory was sufficient to hold all procedures before RNAV approaches became a “thing”, it is no longer big enough to hold the thousands of new RNAV procedures that have been implemented in the last 10-15 years, so something had to be done to limit the total database size.

Flight simulator FMS/GPS systems have no such memory constraints. With Navigraph, they take the master ARIC-424 database files from Jeppesen for the entire world, and convert it to dozens of formats for various add-on aircraft in FSX/P3D and XPlane, and (now) for the MSFS core nav data.

This can produce some problems too, as you will get approaches in an add-on aircraft that the real aircraft is not capable of performing. In FSX/P3D for instance, the current Aerosoft CRJ using Navigraph will show the two RNP RNAV approaches at Palm Springs, even though a real CRJ will only show the VOR approach at KPSP, because no CRJ is (or ever will be) certified to fly an RNP approach procedure due to FMS and autopilot limitations.

With NavBlue, I can understand missing procedures if their nav data is an adaptation of a specific real aircraft FMS database. The thing that really concerns me though is the number of obsolete procedures in the NavBlue data. (Sometimes 10 or more years out-of-date). It speaks to a seriously flawed process in their QA when it comes to importing the master ARINC-424 data records that they (should) receive from various national AIP authorities each month.

This NavBlue database problem is not limited to MSFS. The fantastic Aerowinx PSX 747-400 also uses NavBlue as a database provider. In the case of the Aerowinx database, it is supposed to be the very same database that NavBlue provides for real 747-400 operators. Yet, the same errors exist at my home airport, KELM. 5 of 6 approaches are missing entirely, and the one ILS that is present contains waypoint names that have been obsolete for over 6 years.

This problem might never be identified by end-users of the real database, because there is no reason why a real 747-400 would ever land at KELM.

The NavBlue data appears to be reasonably complete and accurate for large international airports in the US, but their data for local and regional US airports is truly horrid in many cases. 

 

On 12/16/2020 at 5:12 PM, cwburnett said:

Thanks to @kaosfere here's the latest data from NavBlue:

Latest Navigraph:

can I ask you, did you manually import this ?

13 hours ago, FPStewy said:

can I ask you, did you manually import this ?

This was created by emptying my community folder completely and having LNM rebuild the library.   Then installing Navigraph data and rebuilding the library once more.

Also from what i can recall NAVIGRAPH beta misses approaches that are NOT specific to any runway. They cant do nothing until Asobo takes care about it in MSFS.

What I have noticed some Asobo SIDS and Stars modify the approach b leaving out waypoints.  When compared to the Charts direct from FAA or CASA Navigraph data seems much more complete and shows the official paths.

20 hours ago, kaosfere said:

This was created by emptying my community folder completely and having LNM rebuild the library.   Then installing Navigraph data and rebuilding the library once more.

I mean in the first pic of 2:23 where you say that latest from NavBlue with 7,088 markers was that the default from MS2020 without navigraph ?

49 minutes ago, FPStewy said:

I mean in the first pic of 2:23 where you say that latest from NavBlue with 7,088 markers was that the default from MS2020 without navigraph ?

Yes, that's just the default sim nav data as of the latest release, which Asobo sources from Navblue.

23 hours ago, cwburnett said:

Yes, that's just the default sim nav data as of the latest release, which Asobo sources from Navblue.

thanks for the info, that means that NavBlue doubled the markers in one update.

Not to necro this thread, but maybe better than starting a fresh one.  I wanted to call special attention to the updated nav data in SU4. We worked in partnership with Asobo to get the FAA dataset added to the AIRAC cycle, so default data should now have complete* procedures for all FAA regulated airports. This added ~6000 procedures to the US airspace -- a major improvement thanks to the hard work over at Asobo.

*It is worth noting that we're still working with the team on getting circling-only approaches added to the nav system, and that enhancement will hopefully make an appearance in one of the next updates, so that's still an open item, but in the meantime many more US airports have procedures that were previously missing.

More to come on this topic in future updates as we move closer and closer to a comprehensive nav database included with the base sim.

"Navigraph data installs into the Community folder like any other addon/mod and overwrites the default sim nav data in the MSFS virtual file system (VFS)"

wait... what???

I have not purchased this product for MSFS 2020 because I did not see the utility of having access to extensive navigation info if it was not in the sim.  I mean why buy if you have say an ILS approach from navigraph but can fly it because that ILS freq (and other items) are not in the sim.  I knew this wall worked together well in FSX/P3D (which I do not own).  But I understood one could not modify the in game nav data as that was proprietary locked by Asobo.

Are you saying here that you do indeed overwrite the entire in game nav database?  How long does that take to load each time you startup?

11 minutes ago, Mike S KPDX said:

Are you saying here that you do indeed overwrite the entire in game nav database?  How long does that take to load each time you startup?

The nav data is not locked in the sim and has never been. A Navigraph subscription adds their database to the community folder like any other third party add-on and replaces the default sim data. It adds about 30 seconds to my load time having Navigraph in the community folder.

42 minutes ago, cwburnett said:

We worked in partnership with Asobo to get the FAA dataset added to the AIRAC cycle, so default data should now have complete* procedures for all FAA regulated airports.

Just a quick check at my standard RNAV test location:

KTPA RNAV R01L still only shows FITPA, missing PIE as an IAF..

Am I missing something?

On 12/16/2020 at 2:46 PM, ryanbatcund said:

I'm also wondering if Navigraph will fill in the missing data?  There's a ton of smaller airports in MSFS that don't have any RNAV approaches / procedures.

Those that I have previously noted as exceptions appear to now be in place with this SU4.  I have checked out at least six.  And I uninstalled Navigraph Beta before the update just to be sure.  As a test check KUMP Indianapolis Metro.  If you have RNAVs to 15 and 33 then its updated from previously when just one LOC approach was available.  I mentioned in a separate I started earlier today that transitions (IAFs) that were previously not offered in either the default or in Navigraph are now there.  At least many of them are.