There was yet another thread on the PMDG forums requesting a new MD-11, which was quickly locked. I don't know about you, but to me it feels like PMDG are being a tad dishonest about the sales potential of such a product -- if it wasn't expected to sell, why then are both tfdi and rotate working on one? There's got to be more to this than meets the eye...

I can’t wait for the tfdi one. But even so pmdg believes they can profit more in something else. Hardly sinister. 

What’s dishonest about them not thinking it will sell well enough?

12 minutes ago, Ilari Kousa said:

There was yet another thread on the PMDG forums requesting a new MD-11, which was quickly locked. I don't know about you, but to me it feels like PMDG are being a tad dishonest about the sales potential of such a product -- if it wasn't expected to sell, why then are both tfdi and rotate working on one? There's got to be more to this than meets the eye...

I'm not even sure I follow the logic here.  You think PMDG is lying about the sales potential?  Because other developers are working on something?  Maybe PMDG already has comparative sales numbers on the MD-11.  Maybe they see more profits in other product lines, maybe they don't need to explain their business decisions to us...

But posting a a title that says Is PMDG being Dishonest or Not is clickbait garbage in my personal opinion.  Absolute nonsense.

 

58 minutes ago, Ilari Kousa said:

I don't know about you, but to me it feels like PMDG are being a tad dishonest about the sales potential of such a product -- if it wasn't expected to sell, why then are both tfdi and rotate working on one? There's got to be more to this than meets the eye...

Strictly-speaking they're not being dishonest, they're being economical with the truth, which is not the same thing. And I can't say I blame them. It's a bit like missing off a drunk and disorderly charge from your CV, it's not actually a lie if you miss it off, it's just better not to mention it.

As far as I'm aware, much of what made the MD-11 good was the same as what made their original FS2004 737-NG so good too, and that was the fact that it was developed by Lefteris Kalamaris.

Kalamaris put the left in Lefteris, when he departed from PMDG to found Flight Sim Labs and go on to develop the (probably) best FSX/P3D add-on aeroplane there is (unless we count the Majestic Dash 8 and the A2A Comanche) in the shape of the FSL A320, although not forgetting that realistic Concorde FSL also knocked out.

So, you can probably work out that much of the reputation PMDG has garnered, is as a result of Lefteris, his skills, and the products he oversaw the development of while he was there. Some of this means that a large part of the talent (and the rights to some stuff) went out of the door when Lefteris did, and some of it is because the MD-11 genuinely did not sell too well for PMDG on the MS FS platform as a commercial product, in spite of the approximately twenty-three same 'serious simmers' (TM) who always go on forums to claim if PMDG made another one, it would be a smash hit.

This is not what a lot of people who think the sun shines out of PMDG's jacksie want to hear and so they don't tend to mention most of this, but not mentioning it, is not being dishonest, it's just being smart enough to know it wouldn't help.

Now I should point out here that this is not a dig at PMDG, just an explanation of what happened and why, and please note that PMDG have gone on to make some cool stuff after Lefteris went so I'm not saying they were lost without him. It's all ancient history really, a bit like the MD-11 itself, which is no longer a passenger airliner, and since a lot of PMDG fans like to fly things which are realistic in terms of current real-world operations, this is another reason why they probably don't want to develop one, even if they could, because it would largely mean simulating flying tons of stuff out of Taiwan on a cargo plane and not much else.

Other companies are working on MD-11s because they've already done a lot of the avionics stuff for other products which share similarities with the MD-11 (typically modernised DC-9 variants), so it makes sense for them to squeeze as much out of their efforts as possible, and the fact that they are making these things, also means there's even less of a market for PMDG to have a stab at one themselves.

 

Edited February 5, 20215 yr by Chock

A company has made a decision to drop a product. Suggesting they're being dishonest about their reasons is not acceptable. I'll leave this open for now but I suggest @Ilari Kousa thinks about his words carefully.

A company will always make decisions that will lead to profits, so I do not see anything dishonest here....

 

5 hours ago, Chock said:

 

Strictly-speaking they're not being dishonest, they're being economical with the truth, which is not the same thing. And I can't say I blame them. It's a bit like missing off a drunk and disorderly charge from your CV, it's not actually a lie if you miss it off, it's just better not to mention it.

As far as I'm aware, much of what made the MD-11 good was the same as what made their original FS2004 737-NG so good too, and that was the fact that it was developed by Lefteris Kalamaris.

No Alan, the PMDG MD-11, as Randazzo told the story long ago, was a mostly-completed project developed and brought to PMDG in that state by Bill Grabowski.  PMDG brought some of their team's expertise to bear to finish and polish it, but the heavy lifting was done by Bill, not Lefteris, not to diminish Lefteris' obvious successes in his post-PMDG life.

And no, PMDG's leadership having a different (and arguably better-informed) opinion than the OP does not at all imply dishonesty or even being "economical with the truth."  It's too common these days for some people, rather than accepting that someone else can quite legitimately form a different opinion than their own, to go straight to "the other guy must be dishonest."  "My opinion is truth...all others must be rooted in duplicity."  Horse hockey.  I find it brazenly shallow to even suggest it. 

PMDG had a one-time good deal with the MD-11, I suspect it was never a best-seller for them, and with the principal developer gone and the size of the real world fleet growing ever-smaller, they've decided it's not a good risk for re-development.  They have every right to decide what to work on and what not to work on, and they owe none of us an explanation for their decisions.

It wasn’t my intention to badmouth PMDG.. anyway I guess we can draw the conclusion that if PMDG thought the M11 had commercial potential, they’d do it? It’ll be interesting to see how the upcoming products do. Tfdi in particular have comparatively less to do given they can use the 717 as a base, but I doubt they (or Rotate) will reach the technical fidelity of the PMDG, which is unfortunate.

I still remember how their servers crashed when the MD-11 came out, and there was a lot of commotion here in the Avsim forums 😅 Those were the days...

Personally I find it hard to believe they would go on to create two more longhaul jets (777 and 747) given the MD-11 already didn't sell that well according to them, but maybe I'm projecting my own preferences onto others too much.

28 minutes ago, Ilari Kousa said:

anyway I guess we can draw the conclusion that if PMDG thought the M11 had commercial potential, they’d do it?

You started a thread with a title asking if PMDG was being honest and immediately answered your own question. 

If the product would be more profitable that other products they would develop, they would do it. 

The fact that they lock topics requesting specific products is up to them.

This seems clear enough: 

"We have said many times not going to happen. Locking the thread as does not serve any purpose discussing the same over and over and over again"

 

Edited February 5, 20215 yr by DChockey08

1 hour ago, w6kd said:

No Alan, the PMDG MD-11, as Randazzo told the story long ago, was a mostly-completed project developed and brought to PMDG in that state by Bill Grabowski.  PMDG brought some of their team's expertise to bear to finish and polish it, but the heavy lifting was done by Bill, not Lefteris, not to diminish Lefteris' obvious successes in his post-PMDG life.

Yup, that's what RR said, but at the time, and afterwards, we have to pick what's true out of that tale and what was expedient at the time for RR to say from a PR standpoint, since at the time, having your main project person leave was something PMDG were keen to play down for entirely understandable reasons.

So I don't blame RR for doing that, it was a sensible stance to take to ensure confidence in PMDG among its customers remained, but as with most companies, what they say quite often shouldn't be confused with the truth lol. Lefteris was the Lead Technical Developer at PMDG, he did a lot more than polish up a finished project where the MD-11 was concerned. The fact that he managed to get a realistic Concorde and a realistic A320 out the door (a feat many informed people imagined wasn't even possible on the platform). As I say, this doesn't make PMDG liars, it makes them shrewd with PR and there's nothing wrong with being like that, it's a desirable trait for a business. 

Edited February 5, 20215 yr by Chock

Read the credits on the PMDG MD-11.  Kalamaris is listed as a supporting developer, Grabowski the lead primary developer.  Bill was not a part of PMDG before he brought the MD-11 to them, nor was he part of any of their other projects after.

 

1 hour ago, Chock said:

Lefteris was the Lead Technical Developer at PMDG, he did a lot more than polish up a finished project where the MD-11 was concerned. The fact that he managed to get a realistic Concorde and a realistic A320 out the door (a feat many informed people imagined wasn't even possible on the platform).

Whilst Lefteris did work on Concorde we should not forget the lead programmer for the aircraft flight model is Andrew Wilson (aka @MachTwo). He provided the flight model for the Concorde simulator at Brooklands Museum. An indispensible human if ever there was one.

I just want a 737. I don't care about the internal/external politics or rumors associated with PMDG. They're a great company that has been giving us top-notch aircraft for years. I'm sure they will continue to do so once they figure out how to operate in this entirely-new ecosystem.