1 hour ago, fogboundturtle said:

 new modern rendering pipeline that can compete against the budget that MS has but I would certainly like to see it. Competition  is good for everyone

All the rendering pipelines are the same, with some optional features (like tessellation) which has plenty of open source code, references and examples, implemented in every possible game.

So the developer does not really to be exceptionally talented, and LR are talented, working with Vulkan is a nightmare which makes creating a graphics pipeline feel like making an omelete.

5 hours ago, Greazer said:

Thanks for posting how a real engine renders, i.e.: Color, HDR, Lighting, Shadows, Depth, Vibrant Textures, and Draw Distance!   Until XP12 can produce this I don't want to see it.

XP11 really isn't that different if you exceptionally care about those things. 

(Credit: Enhanced Cloudscapes users Santitt01 and joey1908 )

if only there was hardware powerful enough to make shots like that in VR or on mobile devices....

8 hours ago, jarmstro said:

I agree but would just point out that the X-Plane airports are all just basically community freeware (using default assets) included in the sim. Much the same is happening in MSFS.although whether any will ever be included in the initial download I do not know.

Sure, but because that process is excruciatingly time consuming (taken 6 years for xplane, and that's with decent, proven and documented tools), they are nowhere close.

Edited March 21, 20215 yr by mSparks

10 hours ago, fogboundturtle said:

I am uncertain that LR has the capability or capacity to create a brand new modern rendering pipeline that can compete against the budget that MS has but I would certainly like to see it. Competition  is good for everyone

It's not the rendering pipeline that's insurmountable for LR, it's the streaming data method that allows worldwide ortho-based terrain (where available) and worldwide photogrammetry-based objects on that terrain (where available).

Even if LR licensed the data from a 3rd party, they don't own the server networks to stream it on demand. The results from a rendering pipeline is only as good as the data you have to feed it. That's the bottleneck for LR because their sim is based on local (user) storage of data. 

This method of streamed scenery generation is revolutionary. It's the tent pole that's propping up the popularity of the other sim right now, because the core flight simulation itself is still pretty shaky.

Maybe in 10 years we'll have home computers with redonkulous amounts of local storage, and a sim like XP could just dump that data in one huge pile. Set your computer up for a few days of downloading terabytes of data and you're good to go.

Right now that isn't practical. XP will have to compete (not that Austin sees it that way) with improved OSM, higher-res mesh, improved vegetation and regionalized autogen. And much better flight modeling, at least for a while yet.

 

11 minutes ago, Paraffin said:

it's the streaming data method that allows worldwide ortho-based terrain (where available)

Pretty sure this is another of Microsoft's other big lies.

Real time streaming of even just LVL16 ortho flying at mach 1 would require a user to have a 600mbs internet connection (based on being able to fly over my ortho 3 times faster than it takes to download on a 200mbs internet connection), let alone any of the higher levels. This isn't what they are doing (although it might be the reason they dont allow fast planes).

What I expect they are doing is streaming lvl 13 or 14 ortho (that would be easy for a user to fit the world on a single disk anyway) and then "popping" in the other high res stuff once it actually downloads by predicting where they will be in say 20 minutes time.

I can't imagine that is a pleasant experience.

24 minutes ago, Paraffin said:

worldwide photogrammetry-based objects

Is there a single nice shot of photogrammetry at near distance? We actually loaded some photogrammetry into xplane back when it was being discussed, I found it looked awful even by my fairly low standards.

40 minutes ago, mSparks said:

What I expect they are doing is streaming lvl 13 or 14 ortho (that would be easy for a user to fit the world on a single disk anyway) and then "popping" in the other high res stuff once it actually downloads by predicting where they will be in say 20 minutes time.

I can't imagine that is a pleasant experience.

The ortho-based bitmap underlying the OSM-based roads, 3D autogen and the vegetation is definitely low res. But it still works. It's "plausible" because they're doing the same thing Orbx does with their ortho-based scenery for XP -- an overlay of "grain" texture that makes it look sharper than it really is when you get close. Probably also some algorithmic processing to blend and smooth pixels so you don't get that blurred, blocky and pixellated look of low-res orthos used alone.

There are still some texture pop-ins even when flying something slow like a C172, so they're going to have to improve that for the fast movers. Anyway, it's working well enough, or so many people wouldn't be flying it right now, warts and all.
 

Quote

Is there a single nice shot of photogrammetry at near distance? We actually loaded some photogrammetry into xplane back when it was being discussed, I found it looked awful even by my fairly low standards.

I'm not going to post or link a screenshot because this is supposed to be an XP topic (although talking about XP's present and future inevitably involves contrast with alternatives). There are plenty of scenery screenshots elsewhere.

I'll just say that when the data is there, and especially in areas supplemented by custom one-off landmarks, the result is astoundingly immersive and believable. If anything, the big problem is the contrast between areas where there is good photogrammetry, and everywhere else using just autogen.

 

Isn't the same in XP11, when you leave an ORBX region or Ortho Land, the difference is striking. I just feel that MSFS worst scenery is better than any worst XP11 scenery. 

2 hours ago, fogboundturtle said:

Isn't the same in XP11, when you leave an ORBX region or Ortho Land, the difference is striking. I just feel that MSFS worst scenery is better than any worst XP11 scenery. 

Yes, it's very noticeable when leaving an Orbx area into default scenery in XP11. However, one compensation is that the frame rate during that transition is liquid smooth, with no visible pop-in artifacts either in the default or Orbx scenery.

Most of the time I don't get stutters in MSFS but I still occasionally get a hang of a few seconds, usually while banking. Worse than that, is the texture and tree pop-in. Not just in the distance but right in front of the plane sometimes.

In contrast, the scenery in XP11 is stable and I never see any pop-in, even when zooming out to find a tiny airstrip in the distance. The world is stable. I'd cut the new kid some slack because the sim hasn't even been out for a year yet, but they need to fix that eventually. Noticeable pop-in is a big immersion breaker.

 

3 hours ago, fogboundturtle said:

Isn't the same in XP11, when you leave an ORBX region or Ortho Land, the difference is striking

default xplane textures are pretty hard on fps and not good.

but you can download the entire united states fairly easily

https://forums.x-plane.org/index.php?/files/file/36327-us-orthophotos/

So never have to leave them.

main thing with Orbx is they do a lot of manual correction (remove the clouds for example), rest of the world is similar.

no idea what that looks like going forward, "orbx global' isnt impossible from one or the other tho (or both, choice is good)

16 hours ago, mSparks said:

...

(Credit: Enhanced Cloudscapes users Santitt01 and joey1908 )

...

I find that to be much more real looking than the fake glitter in FS2020.

On 3/20/2021 at 12:53 AM, HumptyDumpty said:

sorry for a bit of offtopic  of an offtopic for a moment.  

Which street fighter do you have ? 

 

Suzuki GSX S1000

On 3/20/2021 at 10:18 PM, Anxu00 said:

  Having said that, if there is a new version, I will be parsing and watching if the new features are that break through and justify the time and cost. Otherwise, I will just ignore it and stay where I am.  

This is one of the big challenges I see with XP12.

How many users will just stick with XP11 given all that they have invested in it? DTG now have their new TSW2 (after TSW), and its much older Train Simulator (2 generations behind) still has 2X the user base on steam.

I don't see a new user base that warrants a significant investment to offer something substantial in XP12 to set it apart from XP11. To the extent that XP12 is just a little better than XP11, I don't see many folk trading XP11 stagnant development for...XP12 stagnant development.

With respect to their PC app, LR has cornered themselves into a niche (within a niche) market that can't fund / support further development. And they are way behind the competition (and other Sim Devs) with respect to marketing, engagement, additional revenue streams, frequent development / improvement...broad appeal.

 

 

Edited March 22, 20215 yr by FlyBaby

On 3/21/2021 at 9:39 PM, mSparks said:

default xplane textures are pretty hard on fps and not good.

but you can download the entire united states fairly easily

https://forums.x-plane.org/index.php?/files/file/36327-us-orthophotos/

So never have to leave them.

main thing with Orbx is they do a lot of manual correction (remove the clouds for example), rest of the world is similar.

no idea what that looks like going forward, "orbx global' isnt impossible from one or the other tho (or both, choice is good)

Fairly easily??😂 You forgot to mention that you'll need a couple of new drives and around a month of your time to download, decompress and convert the files.....after which you will find that some are OK. And some are not. And that they are all very out of date.😀 And for OrbX Global you'll then need another 2000 new drives plus a re wire in your house to be able to supply them with juice. And a year to download the data........Expect XP start-up time of around a week.😂

Edited March 22, 20215 yr by jarmstro

12 minutes ago, jarmstro said:

You forgot to mention that you'll need a couple of new drives and around a month of your time to download, decompress and convert the files.....after which you will find that some are OK. And some are not. And that they are all very out of date.😀 And for OrbX Global you'll then need another 2000 new drives plus a re wire in your house to be able to supply them with juice.

So what's the problem?

😉

1 hour ago, jarmstro said:

Fairly easily??😂 You forgot to mention that you'll need a couple of new drives and around a month of your time to download,

Its no slower to download Ortho for Xplane than it is to download Ortho for MSFS, MSFS didn't come up with some magic image compression algorithm that somehow defies the laws of network bandwidth (google did tho 🤪)

One level lvl16 tile takes me 6 and a half minutes and consumes 2GB, (timed it recently)

that comes out at a 5MBs download speed

Now, if only it didn't take 1-2 minutes or so so to fly over it at high mach speeds, streaming that in real time might be possible! (good job no one promised they could do that already, or the people who bought into that promise are gonna be banana split bonkers mad when they find out they are stuck with aircraft that fly less than mach 1)

Edited March 23, 20215 yr by mSparks

3 hours ago, mSparks said:

Now, if only it didn't take 1-2 minutes or so so to fly over it at high mach speeds, streaming that in real time might be possible! (good job no one promised they could do that already, or the people who bought into that promise are gonna be banana split bonkers mad when they find out they are stuck with aircraft that fly less than mach 1)

Nope. There's already a plane that exceeds Mach1 and I've seen no reports  that scenery loading is an issue. Not sure what happens without  a cache though. Guess it's down to your internet speed. PS There's a helicopter now too.

The point here is that in every area where XP could initially claim some superiority it is being caught and will soon be overtaken. (A lot of which is down to the community though I will admit!)

Edited March 23, 20215 yr by jarmstro