Let's not accept the fact that FS is just a videogame now

[GSalden 4,723]

2 minutes ago, marsman2020 said:

It's already weakening the PC platform because a large portion of Asobo's resources are going into re-writing huge swaths of the sims for XBox, all of which is happening in branches of the code that we won't get to benefit from on PC until after the XBox release.

Many of the big improvements to things like weather are very unlikely to happen until after the XBox version is out and the branches have merged back together.

There are so many branches that the devs can't even keep track of what features they have fixed/added in the Q&As.

Us paying customers get a half-broken barely Beta product and the devs are off making an XBox version instead of fixing what they have already sold.

What is out now never should have been released and they know it.  That's why they are rewriting it.

Fair enough..

[Bobsk8 12,960]

13 minutes ago, fogboundturtle said:

I understand you are frustrated but this idea that because there will be a xbox version that it weakens the PC version is utterly ridiculous. MSFS is PC first platform as stated by Jorg like 5 millions times already. Get over it.  Get off your high horse and elitist snobbish view. MSFS has done more for flight simulation hobby than XP11 and P3D combine over the past 20 years. IT's because of people like you who think they are better than others that the hobby was dying. Let people experience the simulator the way they want. If you think you need 100000000$ worth of equipement and addons to make you feel like you are in a simulator , well that your prerogative. It's not everyone's point of view. 

In my opinion, XP has always looked terrible, and still does after around 20 years of them tinkering with it. P3D is basically FSX with some refinement, and the latest version doesn't seem to be doing very well, judging by the problems people are posting with it. MSFS is the wave of the future  and can only get better. If MSFS shut down tomorrow, rather than go back to P3D or XP ( talk about a giant step back) , I think I would find another hobby.  

[marsman2020 1,310]

14 minutes ago, fogboundturtle said:

It's different team working on different thing.  Xbox version is important for MSFS and the flight sim community in general. Even if it doesn't appeal to you, it appeals to a lot that can't afford a PC to run MSFS. You guys really have to stop this nonsense.  

Not true.  They have discussed in multiple Q&As that they have so many branches of the source code that it's getting hard to track, and that a lot of the work is happening in branches associated with XBox.

[RXP 2,338]

My 2 cents, for what it's worth: I have mixed feelings about the XBox version.

I believe we’re still in beta for the Xbox release, and it is available on PC in the condition it has always been intended for. There is no better way to test the new DX12 code and don’t risk it failing on Xbox, than having a bunch of passionate and dedicated simmers trying their best to help in the process. I’m not saying it is bad, actually we benefit from using the game already without having to wait until this summer and being restricted to playing with an XBox controller, or the few more advanced controllers which would be compatible with the Xbox hardware.

However, if WU3 and SU3 are any indication of the problem I have with the Xbox version: most likely the deadline for DX12 implementation is 3 months from now (after it will be internal testing and validation for Xbox), there is a possibility some of the refactoring done for DX12 is creeping in the DX11 code base right now and causes the performance issues reported since WU3. Because handling CPU/GPU fences/sync is really different when dealing with DX12 command buffers, which in turn makes the code using different buffer handling/logic and synchronization points, which in turn causes disruption in the flow for DX11. Just a wild guess, but the visible deterioration of CPU/GPU sync problems I can monitor and see tells me there are more profound changes to the rendering engine beneath.

Which leads me to the following problem with the PC/Xbox versions: if tomorrows tech is beneficial for the flight simulation genre, via new hardware and/or software best practices, will FS2020 be able to benefit in its 10 years life span, if the XBox is not capable of supporting this new hardware and/or software best practice? Because one thing for sure: the Xbox hardware is fixed in time and any new PC only tech won't carry over.

Which in turn leads me to think, despite some saying Xbox will bring more people to the genre, having a common code base with common tech and common user interface and capability for both Xbox and PC might not be key to making flight simulator a better simulator in the end.

Immediate effects of how the Xbox version is limiting the PC version are already measurable:

1) ForceFeedback. Because the Xbox is using XInput, and because Xinput is butchering down FF to a mere XBox controller rumbling support, there is no FF in FS2020 despite the FSX code base supporting it, and despite the FS2020 aircraft carrying over the FSX area force feedback adjustment params in their config files. ForceFeedback is only supported via DirectInput which is PC only, therefore out of the FS2020 equation.

2) it doesn't take much today, all things relative, to use some of NVidia proprietary technologies and get immediate return on perf/visuals (VRRR, DLSS2.1 to name a few). However, because the Xbox hardware is built on AMD, they won't implement it. There is a possibility DX12U DirectML API on NVidia is using DLSS2.1 tech in the back end, but it is not exactly the same for now - time will tell. Nevertheless, according to latest Navigraph survey 85% respondents are simming on NVidia and it makes sense to me a "Simulator for simmers", as eloquently put in the Q&As, is delivering for the simmers hardware.

3) The AMD GPU architecture has some specific advantages when you do know how to exploit the silicon at its best. But the same optimizations might be detrimental when running on NVidia hardware. Here are a few very low/deep optimizations approaches which might reveal excellent on AMD (100% Xbox users) and passable on NVidia (85% simmers):

https://gpuopen.com/gdc-presentations/2019/gdc-2019-s5-blend-of-gcn-optimization-and-color-processing.pdf
https://gpuopen.com/gdc-presentations/2019/gdc-2019-s4-optimization-techniques-re2-dmc5.pdf

If you further add the SDK shielding 3rd party developers to delivering add-ons capable of using the silicon to its best in order to enhance your simming experience without impacting the fps, I don't believe the one-size-fits-all approach FS2020 is pursuing for now is entirely beneficial to the simmers. It really is not black and white at least.

 

 

 

Edited March 24, 2021 by RXP

[Oldschool61 38]

On 3/23/2021 at 7:11 AM, Bobsk8 said:

Oh , OK, that is why MSFS 2020 is so bug free and works so well for everyone. By the way, name a PC  game that Asobo produced that is anywhere near the complexity of MSFS 2020. 

Dont blame Asobo.  MS determines release schedules not Asobo.  This is not Asobo flight sim.  IF you dont add a bunch of mods its not to bad.

[ADamiani 470]

11 hours ago, Alpine Scenery said:

That's a bit harsh, to make it in the corporate world of cancel culture, you kind of have to be that way, cheerlead the product at all costs. It's just the way things are,.....

I agree on what you say. It's called overselling in the industry.

In my opinion, a programmer talking about how beautiful the next feature is going to be has the same value as a soccer player who describes the goal he is going to score next Sunday.

So, when I see a great product I say so. When it's full of bugs, like now, I do the same. I do not have time to listen to people talking about dreams and promises.

Andrea

[fogboundturtle 2,708]

while you guys are acting like cry babies. I flew all day in the CRJ. 35 FPS the whole flight. Butter smooth. Yes the game has issue but it not all of the time. 

[Bobsk8 12,960]

Right now I am flying over Iowa, at 4,000 feet in the JF Arrow, and the scenery is spectacular!!!! And I didn't have to spend $1,000 + on addons. .😉 

[kiwikat 531]

2 minutes ago, fogboundturtle said:

while you guys are acting like cry babies. I flew all day in the CRJ. 35 FPS the whole flight. Butter smooth. Yes the game has issue but it not all of the time. 

I had been able to do that, but for some reason I am getting the 20 FPS bug 100% of the time today. Not crybabies. People who want to enjoy the product they paid for and have to deal with a developer who won't get off their Word Not Allowed to tell us what is going on.

[Bobsk8 12,960]

1 minute ago, kiwikat said:

I had been able to do that, but for some reason I am getting the 20 FPS bug 100% of the time today. Not crybabies. People who want to enjoy the product they paid for and have to deal with a developer who won't get off their Word Not Allowed to tell us what is going on.

Where are you flying and have you tried flying in a different area?

[fogboundturtle 2,708]

2 minutes ago, kiwikat said:

I had been able to do that, but for some reason I am getting the 20 FPS bug 100% of the time today. Not crybabies. People who want to enjoy the product they paid for and have to deal with a developer who won't get off their Word Not Allowed to tell us what is going on.

I get this part and I don't have an answer for you. Like everyone else, we are waiting for the hotfix. It does suck. Don't get me wrong.

[ADamiani 470]

8 hours ago, bhx22 said:

I'm getting bored of these people who whinge about everything.

If you don't like it don't play it all sims are inherently games they are not real life what do you think P3D is a real life situation its a sim which is basically a game.

............

Get over it or get a real pilots licence and do it for real if you haven't already.

I'm trying to remember the moment when I asked for your advice on what I should or should not do.

I'm sorry, I am unable to. Maybe you can help me with that?

Regards

Andrea

[kiwikat 531]

15 minutes ago, Bobsk8 said:

Where are you flying and have you tried flying in a different area?

Tried different areas in north america. I saw the class bravo thing so I made sure I tried a number that were inside and outside and that didn't have any impact. I'll load up EU somewhere and see if it's any better.

EDIT: No better in AU

EDIT 2: Some random place in Eastern EU was OK

Edited March 24, 2021 by kiwikat

[Bobsk8 12,960]

13 minutes ago, Bobsk8 said:

Right now I am flying over Iowa, at 4,000 feet in the JF Arrow, and the scenery is spectacular!!!! And I didn't have to spend $1,000 + on addons. .😉 

Well, I was flying over Iowa. Stated on the approach to KALO, and a CTD!!!!!  Bummer. 

[OneOfMany 317]

47 minutes ago, marsman2020 said:

Not true.  They have discussed in multiple Q&As that they have so many branches of the source code that it's getting hard to track, and that a lot of the work is happening in branches associated with XBox.

From what they say, this is probably true. However, this may not be a bad thing. Instead they have indicated many internal code changes for optimization, and at the same time rewriting code to best utilize DX12 apis. 

I personally believe that the benefits to us on the PC platform will show up on the Xbox release when we might be able to run the same code. 

I think what we currently are being offered on sim updates is more likely "some" of the available new code patched to keep the original legacy branch running (and somewhat current) 

If this is the case, resources are always best given to the new main branch, and patching what is necessary to keep the old branch running as trouble free as possible