10 minutes ago, GoranM said:

Ok, I never intended to bring X-Plane into it, but I'll respond to your comment.  You're taking 1 thing and turning it into something else.  No one in the entire X-Plane community, including Austin, has said the X-Plane flight model is perfect.  Everyone is in agreement that the X-Plane flight model has flaws.  It'd be extremely narrow minded to think otherwise.  However, I don't remember reading anything about "hacks" to get the flight model right.  There are things that can be adjusted to get the performance and physics right.  An example is creating an accurate as possible wing on a low wing aircraft, but in the sim, when deploying flaps, the aircraft pitches UP.  In a low wing aircraft, the co-efficient of moment forces the nose to pitch down.  So that can be adjusted.  Is this a "hack"?  I wouldn't think so.  X-Plane, at this time, doesn't know if you're creating a high wing or low wing aircraft.  So Austin added fields for co-efficient of lift, co-efficient of drag and co-efficient of moment for the flight model author to make their own adjustments.  There are other areas, such as radius of gyration, etc...but I won't bore anyone with those.

From Janov:

Quote

Last but not least - yes, in earlier versions of X-Plane designers often used "weird" stuff to get performance right, extra surfaces, invisible wheels, etc. This has gotten a lot better with the latest version of the flightmodel, but sometimes you still need to vary the size of a wing or control surfaces to get really close to the handbook

From HiFlyer:

Quote

While not an Aerospace engineer, my friend Jcomm is a mathematician who has fiddled extensively with plane maker and the flight model. He's mentioned some of those "kludges" over the years, consisting of invisible wings, wheels and etc, to make a plane behave somewhat close to the extant math.

The impression I gathered from that is that a lot of this stuff is compromised of magic tricks, fooling us mostly/simply because the vast majority will likely never see the hidden mess under the curtain....

"Extra surfaces, invisible wheels" as Janov mentioned.  "Invisible wings, wheels, etc" from HiFlyer.

That is the very definition of a "hack" and X-Plane uses hacks in its flight model, if the above information is accurate.

 

Edited June 11, 20214 yr by abrams_tank

1 minute ago, abrams_tank said:

Since you don't seem to be up to date with MSFS, one of the best things about MSFS is that Asobo is very responsive and listens to the community.  Asobo then acts on the most highly voted topics from the community (yes, Asobo can't do everything all at once, since it takes time, so some of the less voted topics won't get worked on until the higher priority issues have been fixed).  And the transparency with Asobo is great because every month, we have at least one Twitch Q&A (actually, for this month, we will have more than one Twitch Q&A because there is a separate Q&A for the SDK).

Asobo was also humble enough to acknowledge their work on the G1000/G3000 wasn't being fixed fast enough, so they hired the Working Title developers to takeover the G1000/G3000 work.  This is the right attitude and this is why I think Asobo will go far with MSFS (well, they have gone very far already with MSFS).

 

You're keeping me busy.  

I do visit various MSFS forums on a semi daily basis.  So I do know about SOME things that happen.  But being as busy as I am, I can't read everything.

Anyway, that's great that Asobo are very responsive.  I would hope they are.  It's kind of a given.  As for voted topics. by the community, there's an issue there.  Personally, I'd have to disagree on that.  When people start asking for things like coral beneath the oceans.  Rodents running around the cities, it gets a little ridiculous.  (Yes, they have been asked for in the X-Plane community)

 But to each their own.  If that's Asobo's philosophy, then good on them.  I'd imagine they would have a department just to field all the votes.

I have to admit, I didn't see the acknowledgement from Asobo on their slow pace on the G1000.  But ok.  I mean, they're not obliged to acknowledge it.  It's nice that they did, I suppose.  A G1000 is not an easy thing to code (I have some knowledge in that area).  So bringing in a 3rd party to do it is obviously a very wise move.  

The right attitude?  Of course it is.  I don't disagree with that.  (Sorry, I have to bring XP and LR into this again), Austin has contracted many developers to work on XP12.  A 3PD was contracted by Austin to make the G1000 in X-Plane.  Among other 3PD's.  One of the programmers I worked with was also contracted by Austin to work on default aircraft.  

So you're right.  It IS the right attitude.  100%

5 minutes ago, abrams_tank said:

"Invisible wheels" as Janov mentioned. 

I've seen invisible wheel in flight models.  They're attached to the wings to stop them from dipping into the ground. At least that was what I saw.

5 minutes ago, abrams_tank said:

"Invisible wings, wheels, etc" from HiFlyer.

Personally, I've never used them.  Actually, I have.  An extra set of wheels for an add on in XP10 because ground friction was too weak.  

5 minutes ago, abrams_tank said:

That is the very definition of a "hack" and X-Plane uses hacks in its flight model.

Very few and far between.  I've been doing this for 12 years, and it's not as mainstream as you might think.  But ok.  I go back to my previous statement.  No one has said X-Plane is perfect.  But for us who use it and develop for it, it offers more than enough.

Edited June 11, 20214 yr by GoranM

5 minutes ago, Rimshot said:

Guys, really. XPlane has the best flight model ever LOL Basically just as flawed as any other PC simulator.

 

LOL.  I guess the moral of the story is, you can nitpick at any simulator and find issues with the flight model.

9 minutes ago, abrams_tank said:

LOL.  I guess the moral of the story is, you can nitpick at any simulator and find issues with the flight model.

Thank you for posting that.  I just loaded X-Plane and tried the exact same thing.  I got stuck at about 70-80 degrees pitch up before it slowed down and stalled.

So I don't know if the creator of that video made changes to the flight model (quite easy to do) or if he did something else, but I could not reproduce that.

And here's the image just before stalling.

Just checking again...is that a payware 747??  Blame the 3rd party devs for that.  They're responsible for the flight model.

Edited June 11, 20214 yr by GoranM

50 minutes ago, abrams_tank said:

"Extra surfaces, invisible wheels" as Janov mentioned.

You omitted that I wrote "in earlier versions" - just like you like to blend out anything that does not fit your agenda. And no, we are not comparing X-Plane 5 to MSFS 😂.

I remember one guy demanding that we compare X-Plane 1 to MSFS, because "both are the first versions" 🤪.

41 minutes ago, GoranM said:

(quite easy to do)

Easy on them, they don´t know the joys and possibilities of easily changing an aircraft model 😁

Edited June 11, 20214 yr by Janov

50 minutes ago, abrams_tank said:

  I guess the moral of the story is, you can nitpick at any simulator and find issues with the flight model.

And that about sums it up.

As to the rest of this thread - nineteen pages and still going?

My god, where do people get the energy for this sort of stuff?

58 minutes ago, GoranM said:

No one has said X-Plane is perfect.

Got a 7 days ban on a big XP forum for arguing with a certain flight model dev / mod over XP using airfoils within the fuselage being sort of a hack. So yeah... XP community is at least very sensitive.

Which also shows by the influx of fairly intelligent people coming into others forums playing Grinch.

I do understand that there are certain immature beings doing the same in XP forums, but do you think someone featured on the official MSFS site like Pilot Emilie would come to XP forums telling users about the inferiority of their sim... or one of the guys from Working Title... tells you something about professionality.

Edited June 11, 20214 yr by tweekz

1 minute ago, tweekz said:

Got a 7 days ban on a big XP forum for arguing with a certain flight model dev / mod over XP using airfoils within the fuselage being sort of a hack.

I certainly hope you don't paint EVERYONE in X-Plane with the same brush.

2 minutes ago, tweekz said:

Which also shows by the influx of fairly intelligent people coming into others forums playing Grinch.

To be honest with you, I haven't seen that.  But if it's as prevalent as you say it is, the door, well and truly, swings both ways.

2 minutes ago, tweekz said:

but do you think someone featured on the official MSFS site like Pilot Emilie would come to XP forums telling users about the inferirority of their sim... tells you something about professionality.

I don't know who Pilot Emilie is.  But I guess it depends.  I haven't seen anyone from Laminar go to an MSFS forum and tell everyone that X-Plane rocks.  X-Plane users?  Sure.  By the truckload.  But as I said, MSFS users go to X-Plane forums and do the same thing.  

I'm only here now out of pure curiosity.  

6 minutes ago, GoranM said:

I certainly hope you don't paint EVERYONE in X-Plane with the same brush.

The XP community is outstanding. To be fair - the MSFS community is just as amazing, which I didn't quite expect. I'm talking about the amount of devotion and love.

But there are certain pillars of community that you'd expect to not join the toddlers fight. Not gonna name call, but pay attention who is baited by any "MSFS is awesome" thread. You'll find them there - even if it is within the MSFS forum, where a little hype should be allowed.

Edited June 11, 20214 yr by tweekz

1 hour ago, abrams_tank said:

LOL.  I guess the moral of the story is, you can nitpick at any simulator and find issues with the flight model.

Exactly.

Over the years, I remember hearing that even commercial, level D simulators are not necessarily all that accurate beyond the edge of the so-called "envelope", and my thought is, well why the heck should they be?

Are Profesional pilots doing barrel rolls or trying to go supersonic in a jumbo jet during their (reportedly quite expensive) training time?

Sometimes our apparent search for perfection (and to count coup against the competition) seems to lead straight into silly-world, and since it seems all our Sims live in glass houses, all the stone throwing is kind of.... is pointless a good word?

Though it sure does fill pages..

Edited June 11, 20214 yr by HiFlyer

12 minutes ago, tweekz said:

The XP community is outstanding. To be fair - the MSFS community is just as amazing, which I didn't quite expect. I'm talking about the amount of devotion and love.

But there are certain pillars of community that you'd expect to not join the toddlers fight. Not gonna name call, but pay attention who is baited by any "MSFS is awesome" thread. You'll find them there - even if it is within the MSFS forum, where a little hype should be allowed.

There is passion for something everywhere. It’s inevitable. Apple vs Android. Windows vs MacOS. And the debates are just as heated. If not more. But if it’s the same place I’m thinking about, then censoring is extremely childish, and it doesn’t surprise me. Just to add, I approached the publisher of that site in 2009, about selling payware, and was rejected. Worked out well for me, though. And he wasn’t happy when I was signed by another publisher. Pretty much banned me for life from that moment on. 

Edited June 11, 20214 yr by GoranM

3 minutes ago, HiFlyer said:

Exactly.

Over the years, I remember hearing that even commercial, level D simulators are not necessarily all that accurate beyond the edge of the so-called "envelope, and my thought is,  well why the heck should they be?

Are Profesional pilots doing barrel rolls or trying to go supersonic in a jumbo jet during their (reportedly quite expensive) training time?

Sometimes our apparent search for perfection and to count coup seems to lead straight into silly-world, and since it seems all our Sims live in glass houses, all the stone throwing is kind of.... is pointless a good word?

Though it sure does fill pages.....

I have learnt to laugh at some of the mudslinging. But it crosses the line when personal attacks are made. Someone in this very thread trivialised mental illness in the X-Plane forums by saying a user there needs therapy, along with “others”. That’s crossing the line. It’s also been said about Austin Meyer. But otherwise, healthy debates are good. Shows passion. 

Edited June 11, 20214 yr by GoranM

41 minutes ago, GoranM said:

I have learnt to laugh at some of the mudslinging. But it crosses the line when personal attacks are made. Someone in this very thread trivialised mental illness in the X-Plane forums by saying a user there needs therapy, along with “others”. That’s crossing the line. It’s also been said about Austin Meyer. But otherwise, healthy debates are good. Shows passion. 

I think (I hope)  it's just all said in the heat of the moment. The reality is that people will say things online in anonymity they would never say or even think in real life. If everyone who posted on these forums, both this and the XP forum ever met I have no doubt that they would all get along just fine. After all, we have more in common than not.