People always say just make a slider for this or a checkbox for that. It's never as simple as that. Each new option increases the number of tests that Asobo need to run and increase risk of introducing bugs. Perhaps a bug only happens when slider A is in high state and checkbox B is turned on. How many permutations would Asobo need to test in a world simulation?

It becomes unmanageable very quickly and makes bugs more likely.

It also becomes more difficult for Asobo to make code changes since they also have to consider how it impacts the new slider. Everything becomes more complicated.

That's why Asobo don't, and shouldn't, add these controls without careful consideration and I don't think they should add one here. There are too many subjective opinions on this.

Edited July 30, 20214 yr by sanh

You will be able to very quickly manually adjust way past the built in Options window slider range whenever someone makes a utility and puts it on flightsim.to. Since we already know how to do this the long way with notepad, it should be easy for those who understand .json files to make a simple hack that sits in the community forum.

I don't know about .json files or I would whip one right up.

9 minutes ago, sanh said:

People always say just make a slider for this or a checkbox for that. It's never as simple as that. Each new option increases the number of tests that Asobo need to run and increase risk of introducing bugs. Perhaps a bug only happens when slider A is in high state and checkbox B is turned on. How many permutations would Asobo need to test in a world simulation?

It becomes unmanageable very quickly and makes bugs more likely.

It also becomes more difficult for Asobo to make code changes since they also have to consider how it impacts the new slider. Everything becomes more complicated.

That's why Asobo don't, and shouldn't, add these controls without careful consideration and I don't think they should add one here. There are too many subjective opinions on this.

every opinion is always subjective.

there are facts, and then everyone makes opinions using these facts.

this issue , there never is going to be agreement, some usre will want sliders, others say its not wise, both opinions can be

defended. i do not see an easy solution out of this, but i tend to be in favor of a slider.

fsx had many sliders too, xp has them, so w eare used to them, and yes soempeople are using them wrongly.

i am glad i dont need to take a decision there,. but anyhting asobo does there, there will be disagreement.

1 hour ago, FalconAF said:

The problem with the slider concept is that it becomes a nightmare for the developer of the sim because of "The Sim S*cks!!!" complaints from users who simply don't understand there is no such thing as a "free lunch".

...

What people are asking is for MS/Asobo to develop and market TWO totally DIFFERENT versions of MSFS....one for XBox and one for PC users. That probably isn't going to happen. 

Which one is going to get the marketing preference?

There are always complaining gamers in every single game ever released, that will not change. The developers don't care about the complainers in the sense that it hurts their feelings, they don't read it. 

There is no need to develop 2 separate editions, as the code is already linked in whatever build methods they setup, as there are ALREADY 2 separate versions, as seen by the fact LOD culling isn't actually in the PC version yet, even though some of it may have been altered for the custom Autogen, but it's not affecting custom buildings yet rendered by a third-party developer.

Neither of these issues matter...

What does a slider have to do with marketing?

Edited July 30, 20214 yr by Alpine Scenery

38 minutes ago, sanh said:

It becomes unmanageable very quickly and makes bugs more likely.

The sliders are already coded, it's literally just taking another slider that already exists, copy/paste the XML / JSON serializer code, and then change the variable names. It's already done, there is no chance of introducing bugs in a slider unless someone were to make a typo while duplicating the other code and mess up the variable name change. The serializers are already built, they have to be, they aren't creating new code, they are duplicating and changing it just like you would change the name of a recipe from Brownie to Brownie Pie. They don't even have to re-position it in the UI either, it's already in a scrolled viewport, it just gets plopped at the end (MySlider.Add)...

The slider just changes a single variable value before the re-initialization or load of the screens. That variable already exists in code as well, they aren't really creating anything to add another slider.

Edited July 30, 20214 yr by Alpine Scenery

11 minutes ago, Alpine Scenery said:

The sliders are already coded

I was not talking about introducing bugs when adding the slider. I agree it's simple and safe to add a slider like this and it would work.

I am talking about what it means for future development. If the sim is meant to last 10 years, the number of options is going to become crazy at this rate and make maintainability more difficult.

There is no way Asobo can test the myriad of options that can be configured. 

Remember that CTD a few releases ago that happened when AI Traffic was set to simple or complex models (can't remember which) and multiplayer was turned on? These are the problems that get through testing  as there is no way for Asobo to thoroughly test every combination. 

Sliders and options can be a good thing for some reasons but not necessarily always a good idea. For me, this is one of those where it's not a good idea.

1 hour ago, FalconAF said:

The thing about MS and Asobo having the XBox version of MSFS is that THEY will be able to prevent most of the "user induced" things that cause poor performance in the sim.

Come on, any mentally healthy user would move the sliders to the left if the framerate is too low. It's what has always happened with flight simulators. I remember A10 Tank Killer that, if maxed out, ran at 3 fps on a Pentium 133.

 

3 minutes ago, sanh said:

I was not talking about introducing bugs when adding the slider. I agree it's simple and safe to add a slider like this and it would work.

I am talking about what it means for future development. If the sim is meant to last 10 years, the number of options is going to become crazy at this rate and make maintainability more difficult.

It's already in the code, they have to initialize all these values regardless if they expose them to the user or not.

Edited July 30, 20214 yr by Alpine Scenery

On 7/30/2021 at 3:08 AM, MrFuzzy said:

Come on, any mentally healthy user would move the sliders to the left if the framerate is too low. It's what has always happened with flight simulators. I remember A10 Tank Killer that, if maxed out, ran at 3 fps on a Pentium 133.

Yes they would (but historically THAT ISN'T the case in previous flight sim versions)...if there was only ONE slider to move that would cause a user's desired effect to occur.

But look at all those previous flight sims you mentioned.  With the plethora of sliders that are available.  Being "mentally healthy" alone didn't prevent (and still doesn't prevent) users from moving the WRONG sliders...and COMBINATION of sliders...until they have screwed up their settings so badly the sim starts puking it's guts as far as display and performance is concerned.

I'd bet a months pay there are users today...both new and with previous years of flight simming experience with previous flight sims...who STILL couldn't tell you what moving several of the CURRENT available sliders in MSFS actually DO to/for the sims display/performance.  And the "pop-up" explanations shown in the General Settings window when you mouse-hover over a slider setting doesn't explain it to anyone who doesn't already understand it.  At best, the pop-ups just imply, "your changes may improve or cause problems depending on your chosen setting".

Don't get me wrong.  I agree sliders would work for people who know the consequences of using them incorrectly.  But let's face it.  Historically, they are ABUSED more often than used correctly.  Forums are full of evidence of this from all previous flight sim versions.  

Edited July 31, 20214 yr by FalconAF

On 7/29/2021 at 12:07 PM, captain420 said:

I have a pretty decent machine

Pretty decent I would say awesome Brother 🙂 

Totally agree, I hope they implement this, we need that slider. 

 

Edited July 31, 20214 yr by ThrottleUp

I would prefer a real optimization from Asobo instead of introducing a slider for LOD, for example... which is practically then on user side to match with his hardware (like the other graphic settings).

Giving more fps not by real optimizations but by the means of loosing on visuals is not a progress really. Optimization means, at least for me, using the same settings (eg. between SU4 and SU5) and getting the same visuals quality but more fps/faster loading times.

The industry standard is to WARN the user when they go over what a basic formula that queries their hardware decides is too much. The industry standard is not to remove sliders, not sure why we are redefining this, though I admit not everyone follows standards.

Edited August 1, 20214 yr by Alpine Scenery

Can someone post a video of these LOD pop ins? I really do not see them at all. 

On 7/30/2021 at 4:30 PM, FalconAF said:

The problem with the slider concept is that it becomes a nightmare for the developer of the sim because of "The Sim S*cks!!!" complaints from users who simply don't understand there is no such thing as a "free lunch".

It happened (and still happens) with people using sims like the old FSX.  A majority of the graphics settings could be controlled by using "sliders" in the settings.  And people being people, they would just crank them up to max settings that their computers never had a prayer of handling.  And the complaints about "poor performance" and "lousy frame rates" would fill the forums.  What on earth makes anybody think that wouldn't happen with MSFS if people could "max out" a "pop-up distance" slider to the point it began choking the computer hardware to death and burying their beloved frame rates?

The thing about MS and Asobo having the XBox version of MSFS is that THEY will be able to prevent most of the "user induced" things that cause poor performance in the sim.  Every XBox user will have the SAME hardware platform, with a "certified by MS/Asobo" list of addons in the Marketplace that they SAY will work in advance, so there shouldn't be any confusion about performance because of a plethora of different video cards, chipsets, overclocking, "non accepted developer software addons", etc.  MS and Asobo could (and in the case of the XBox version...SHOULD) tell XBox users, "Hey!  Quick asking us to include settings for you that if you use them incorrectly can screw up the entire platform." So why should they be expected to provide "setting adjustments" to PC users that historically just cause problems because many PC users will abuse them?

They should (and rightfully so, too) cringe at giving the PC community (consisting of everything from 10-year old computers/hardware, to systems with $3000 for the latest and greatest GPU), ANY "slider control" that would allow the user to "jack up" the graphics settings to a point even the best computers might start choking themselves.  Let the performance complaints begin as soon as that happens, and it would be NO FAULT of the sim software.

What people are asking is for MS/Asobo to develop and market TWO totally DIFFERENT versions of MSFS....one for XBox and one for PC users. That probably isn't going to happen. 

Which one is going to get the marketing preference?

My guess is the one that causes the fewest headaches for MS/Asobo.  And currently, that means the MS/Asobo stance is (and should be), "Hey! Developers of addons!  Either follow the SDK LOD requirements for objects or quit developing addons that are just aggravating the community...AND US!"  And sorry...but no...MS/Asobo should not be giving anybody any "pop-up slider setting" for use even if an addon already has 4-level LOD settings.  People would STILL try to max the slider out to see "leaves on trees on the horizon".  

    

 

Nah, I don't think it will be much of a nightmare for Asobo.  There are already a lot of sliders in MSFS.  Adding another slider isn't going to make a big difference for Asobo to manage. It will however, quell the complaints from power PC users who don't like the culling.

On the whole, the culling probably isn't a big issue for the overwhelming majority of users, especially because they get an FPS boost from the culling.  It's a small minority of users with power PCs  who don't mind a drop in FPS, who dislike the culling (there are a lot of power PC users who probably actually like the culling because they get an nice FPS boost from it).