2 hours ago, mSparks said:

Its not what I expected/believed it would be at all.

VR in the cockpit of the 744 is.... intimidating.

?

didn't understand , do you mean the default scenery ? I am not sure I followed you

For the tube guys the scenery options in XP11 is probably already almost perfect for them, certainly a league above any of the alternatives.

 

Edited October 7, 20214 yr by Humpty

1 hour ago, jarmstro said:

For goodness sake. You and most on here are obsessed with calling people trolls. Geazer is not a troll he just says things you don't like. Get over it or counter argue it! And keep in mind that but for criticism and competition from MSFS there would be no X-Plane 12 because the lethargy and complacency of LR would have continued forever IMO.

Agreed, but doing it on all XP threads is not a critic I believe ? 

 

31 minutes ago, Humpty said:

didn't understand , do you mean the default scenery ? I am not sure I followed you

For the tube guys the scenery options in XP11 is probably already almost perfect for them, certainly a league above any of the alternatives.

 

Yeah, bit of free ortho, 30,000 realistic 3D airports to fly into and out from and most of the time the most you can see is

or

or

There's nothing desperately lacking there, because they never get that close to city buildings, only ever see the ground from 10s of thousands of feet up doing an external view, and turning on final already takes your breath away - all the "fun" is in navigating through a crazy complicated cockpit.

Biggest concern to tubers in XP11 was actually (getting close to) the clouds, which ES just pretty much fixed, and why they are all raving about it.

Edited October 7, 20214 yr by mSparks

2 hours ago, jarmstro said:

For goodness sake. You and most on here are obsessed with calling people trolls. Geazer is not a troll he just says things you don't like. Get over it or counter argue it! And keep in mind that but for criticism and competition from MSFS there would be no X-Plane 12 because the lethargy and complacency of LR would have continued forever IMO.

Actually as far as i can remember i have never called anyone a troll as they are cute and live under mushrooms

Edited October 7, 20214 yr by mjrhealth

5 minutes ago, mSparks said:

Yeah, bit of free ortho, 30,000 realistic 3D airports to fly into and out from and most of the time the most you can see is

or

or

There's nothing desperately lacking there, because they never get that close to city buildings, only ever see the ground from 10s of thousands of feet up doing an external view, and turning on final already takes your breath away - all the "fun" is in navigating through a crazy complicated cockpit.

Biggest concern to tubers in XP11 was actually (getting close to) the clouds, which ES just pretty much fixed, and why they are all raving about it.

yes.

1 hour ago, mSparks said:

Yeah, bit of free ortho, 30,000 realistic 3D airports to fly into and out from and most of the time the most you can see is

or

or

There's nothing desperately lacking there, because they never get that close to city buildings, only ever see the ground from 10s of thousands of feet up doing an external view, and turning on final already takes your breath away - all the "fun" is in navigating through a crazy complicated cockpit.

Biggest concern to tubers in XP11 was actually (getting close to) the clouds, which ES just pretty much fixed, and why they are all raving about it.

Your modded 747-400 is amazing, I see (if not mistaken) you are using default clouds, are you using any script or cloud mod for getting that result? Care to share please?

36 minutes ago, alexcolka said:

Your modded 747-400 is amazing, I see (if not mistaken) you are using default clouds, are you using any script or cloud mod for getting that result? Care to share please?

I was back on pure default because I got annoyed with ECE (my fork of enhanced cloudscapes) and mostly default look fine (actually pretty good in VR)

just recently put ece back on (this weekend)

Atm ES is windows only so those are really my only options. I was using noaa to get live weather, but on default settled for a 2 hour update to minimise the "shock" of weather updates. 

Weather and the trees are the two things that I am most excited about for XP12, everything else is candy, but they both drive me nuts on XP11.

Edited October 7, 20214 yr by mSparks

9 hours ago, jarmstro said:

You and most on here are obsessed with calling people trolls.

Obsessed is hardly the term I, or anyone else here, would use.  Obsessed is doing it constantly, repetitively, and, pretty much, on a daily basis (actually, that's what people like Greazer and rka do when criticizing X-Plane...but anyway).

9 hours ago, jarmstro said:

Geazer is not a troll he just says things you don't like.

Correct and Incorrect.  He's been like a broken record since he made an appearance in here.  Repeats the same things in almost every thread.  I find it incredibly pointless when someone keeps repeating themselves, just for the sake of repetition.  And, as I said in another thread, he's very open about bashing X-Plane at every turn, complaining so much, that the only thing that will remotely satisfy him, is if he can't distinguish X-Plane from reality.  Whereas his posts in the MSFS forums are filled with nothing but praise.  Not a single criticism in over a year.  Even though there were obvious issues, as admitted to by Asobo themselves, and even after the corporate laundry list of bugs that are getting addressed as of this post.

There's a method to making a point or criticism.  

Example: And this is one of my many criticisms of X-Plane, but I don't post about it in every single flight sim forum available.

(Make your point) "X-Plane 11 water needs fixing."

(Give an example) "The color is too monotone and doesn't reflect the different colors in different parts of the world.  Also, it needs better water physics and better waves."

(Show an image) "Check out the link I posted"

(Invite people to discuss) "Anyone agree or disagree?"

STOP THERE!

Don't post clips of games that represent less than 1% of the worlds water.  Don't request things like coral and fish (???!!!) and state that if those are lacking, then X-Plane is unflyable.  That's just ridiculous.

Safe to say that every single person in here will be willing to throw in an opinion and actually have an intelligent discussion.  

We don't need the same, repetitive verbal garbage of  "It's been years with the same stuff.  It looks like FS2000.  They need to fix this or they won't see XP13.  If LR don't fix this, no one will buy X-Plane and my wallet stays closed. blah blah blah"  

This is the troll-like behaviour that paints the poster as an immature child, and closes off all discussion.  Would you really want to have a discussion with a person who keeps posting things like this?

9 hours ago, jarmstro said:

Get over it or counter argue it! 

I have.  Many times.  And so have others.  He doesn't respond.  Safe to say it's because we've proven him wrong.  An example?  Sure.  He posted this.

And was replied to with this.

Greazer never replied.  

So...troll behaviour.  He criticises, without discussing.  And his compliments are so thin, I've seen thicker sheets of paper.

Please.

9 hours ago, jarmstro said:

And keep in mind that but for criticism and competition from MSFS there would be no X-Plane 12 because the lethargy and complacency of LR would have continued forever IMO.

They started working on XP12 about 4 years ago.  Way before anyone even thought about promoting the new version of MSFS.  This whole thing about LR getting XP12 out because MSFS is now out, is just not true.  I know people like to think that and put that out there, and they like to think Austin is David competing against MSFS's Goliath, but he never thought of it that way.  He made something, and it succeeded to the point he could make a very nice living off of it.  The "competition" aspect of it was inevitable.  If he really wanted to compete that much, he would have rushed a buggy Vulkan version out last year, and spent a small fortune on advertising.  Nah.  He lets the work do the talking, and he wanted to make sure it was done properly.

It's no secret that Vulkan and Metal were the foundations of XP12, and that was the first hurdle to get over.  Putting out XP12 while Vulkan/Metal were still in the early stages of implementation would have been extremely foolish, so it makes perfect sense to include it with XP11 as a free update, and give people the CHOICE to use it.  There was nothing lethargic about LR or what they were doing, whatsoever.  How do I know this?  Because I've spoken to people who have been working on it.  Many developers have.  LR are getting feedback from quite a few people on what they would like to see in XP12 over the years.  Do you really think they've been chilling out on a tropical island somewhere, drinking cocktails?  

It's ok, though.  You're in the majority of people who believe when very little to nothing is being shown, then no work is going on.  Try to turn that thinking around.  If they're not showing anything, they're too busy to show it.

 

Edited October 8, 20214 yr by GoranM

@GoranM Well it seems to me that the word troll is just flung around at any one who does not conform to the prevailing group think in an effort to get them cancelled. Especially when what they say is true but heretical the word troll is used as a weapon. I don't see Greazer (or myself for that matter) as a troll. I see him as a necessary critic.
 

For what it's worth I have defended both you and Janov on the MSFS forum when exactly the same thing has occurred. Post something factual, an opinion or counter something that breaks the tribal taboo and you are called a troll and beaten into silence. I realise that cancel culture is now normalised but I just don't like it.

EDIT Believe it or not I do read you counter arguments with great interest and I have learned a lot. Words which would never have been written had not the 'trolling' argument been posed in the first place.

Edited October 8, 20214 yr by jarmstro

9 minutes ago, jarmstro said:

@GoranM Well it seems to me that the word troll is just flung around at any one who does not conform to the prevailing group think in an effort to get them cancelled. Especially when what they say is true but heretical the word troll is used as a weapon. I don't see Greazer (or myself for that matter) as a troll. I see him as a necessary critic.
 

For what it's worth I have defended both you and Janov on the MSFS forum when exactly the same thing has occurred. Post something factual, an opinion or counter something that breaks the tribal taboo and you are called a troll and beaten into silence. I realise that cancel culture is now normalised but I just don't like it.

Did you even read what I posted??

I just explained why he's seen as a troll.  And if I carried on like he did in ANY forum, I'd also expect to be labelled as such.

You defending Janov and myself, it's safe to say, had absolutely zero effect on those peoples opinions.  I've made some comments on the flight model, and instantly been labelled a troll.  Yet it's swept under the rug.

Like I said, none of us here are objecting to a discussion about X-plane's shortcomings.  But to de-value the LR teams efforts, by posting things like, "I can't see much difference in the lighting.  This looks like a minor update to XP11." and "If LR don't get the water right, no one will buy XP12", while on the same day, posting nothing but praise for Asobo fixing, what is a ludicrously long list of issues that have been in MSFS since day 1, is pretty pathetic.  And, again, is troll like behaviour.

Maybe some, or all of us, are just tired of reading the same comments by the same person, who continues to thread jack new threads showing something new, and posting those same old criticisms, followed by his own narrative of "If they don't fix it, LR will go out of business".  

It's obvious WHY he does it, but to make an assumption public, based on my own personal judgement, might land me in a bit of hot water.

There's no point in making those kinds of posts...constantly.  We get it.  He thinks X-Plane isn't good.  He's made that clear for God knows how long.  At the same time, he keeps singing MSFS's praises from the rooftops.  And he's met with the same response.  "Buy MSFS.  Don't buy X-Plane.  Problem solved."

No.  He keeps coming back and keeps posting the same criticisms.  Oh, I forgot.  He's posting them for LR's own good.  

I promise you, what is included in XP12 is NOT because of Greazer.  Contrary to how much importance he puts on himself.

And no matter how much they want it to disappear, X-Plane is not going anywhere.  

@GoranM. Of course no one individual has had any effect on XP12 obviously. But to claim that nothing has had any effect and that LR are oblivious to any outside influence is surely absurd and even sinister. I cannot believe that the release of MSFS and the voices of the critics did not at least inject some urgency and vigour into what was a very lethargic company to the benefit of us all.

Edited October 8, 20214 yr by jarmstro

16 minutes ago, jarmstro said:

But to claim that nothing has had any effect and that LR are oblivious to any outside influence is surely ridiculous and even sinister.

Austin has always encouraged the X-Plane community to send him feedback on X-Plane.  Coupled with his own opinions and observations on what's out there, he's grown X-Plane over the years.  He is incredibly loyal to the community that helped build X-Plane to what it is today, and he listened when they wanted more features.  Like a more updated user interface, which was implemented for XP10 or 11 (I forgot which one).  But it went from the very basic UI to a more graphically pleasing one.  

A group of developers were invited to the LR Slack group, purely for the purpose of telling LR what we want to see in the next version of X-Plane.  And literally, just today, a zoom call has been scheduled for any developer wanting to attend, so we can tell the guys at LR what more we want to see.  

16 minutes ago, jarmstro said:

I cannot believe that the release of MSFS and the voices of the critics did not at least inject some urgency and vigour into what was a very lethargic company to the benefit of us all.

No.  It didn't.  And here's why.  Austin is a very intelligent person.  For him to round up the team and demand they finish XP12 ASAP so they can put it up against MSFS would be one of the worst decisions he could make as a business man.  They're not doing anything to slow it down or speed it up.  They're working on it, and it'll be ready when it's ready.  It has nothing to do with being lethargic.  It has to do with getting it right for an initial release.  If they release it too early, they'll be met with, "This thing is so buggy, and I'm sorry I bought it.".  If they release it later, they get labelled lethargic, but at least there'll be fewer issues to deal with, and customers will be relatively happy.  

It took Asobo, a team of over 250, and the financial backing of a $2-3 trillion company, over 7 years to get MSFS to the market.  And yes, it was built on top of FSX.

It's taken LR 4 years to do the same thing.  Lethargic?  No.  I find it quite impressive they can do it in almost half the time as Asobo, with less than 20 staff, and STILL remain in business.  Not to mention having a department working on XP Mobile.

A little bit of perspective can open the eyes of most sceptics.  

Edited October 8, 20214 yr by GoranM

14 minutes ago, jarmstro said:

I cannot believe that the release of MSFS and the voices of the critics did not at least inject some urgency and vigour into what was a very lethargic company to the benefit of us all.

Probably did a little but I doubt as much as all the naysayers would hope, and MSFS has being good for xplane it has added a few new users. We all know what we would like changed in xplane we are here to discuss what they are doing, I guess we wait for the next video.

 

1 minute ago, mjrhealth said:

and MSFS has being good for xplane it has added a few new users.

This is actually true.  There's been a nice injection of X-Plane users, because they were introduced to flight simming as a whole.  And when that happens, they see what else is out there.  Dare I say it, thanks to some of the trolls who keep bashing it.  Did they start thinking, "What is this X-Plane thing these people keep bashing.  Maybe I should just take a look and see how bad it is." only to be surprised at what they see, and then end up getting into it.  

Who knows.

1 minute ago, GoranM said:

This is actually true.  There's been a nice injection of X-Plane users, because they were introduced to flight simming as a whole.  And when that happens, they see what else is out there.  Dare I say it, thanks to some of the trolls who keep bashing it.  Did they start thinking, "What is this X-Plane thing these people keep bashing.  Maybe I should just take a look and see how bad it is." only to be surprised at what they see, and then end up getting into it.  

Who knows.

Yes, people try out MSFS, are annoyed, try out XP and are amazed when they see how far flightsim has advanced in the last decade through XP.

Flightsim will not be held back anymore by dated software such as MSFS. Next level software like XP is in the lead and has always been.