23 minutes ago, Chock said:

Notwithstanding the differences in the two products, we also have to bear in mind that some of the difficulties developers encounter will be a bit cultural. An example of this, is the recommended sound packaging software which MSFS can utilise; it is quite commonly used among game developers, and ultimately it is more flexible, but it's different from what most developers of FSX and P3D aeroplanes have been used to when packaging their sounds, and so it requires someone to become familiar with a system which is new to them if producing things in-house, or to contract someone who is familiar with that software.

Conversely, a newly-minted developer has no previous methodology for production which they've got comfortable with, so they will tend to look at what is the recommended way to produce things for the new sim and say: 'so, it seems we have to do this, this, and this...', whereas an existing developer might be inclined to look at matters differently, see it as a problem, and perhaps say: 'this sucks, why can't we do it like we used to in the old sim?'. Not an insurmountable issue of course, and more cultural than an actual roadblock, but still an issue for a company which has its usual way of going about things which it has got comfortable with.

And of course the PMDG boss is nothing if not opinionated, which is okay, but it does mean he is occasionally inclined to be more vocal about such things on occasion than others might be, sometimes with justification, others times not so much.

A sudden Chock posting out of nowhere!  The world must be ending 🤣

Welcome back Chock, good to see you posting again 👍

8 hours ago, WestAir said:

They began developing the Fenix A320 long before the FBW A320 existed.

With all due respect, you don't know what you're talking about. Not only has PMDG/ASOBO said the recent issues with NG3 development were not because of the SDK, but Iceman and others have said the SDK is not a roadblock to study level aircraft.

lol believe what you want but you do have  the SDK pulled up currently. Let first talk about the similarities between FSX/P3D and MSFS SDKs. Looks almost similar, now there are parts of the SDK that are almost nearly incomplete, if you don't believe me ask someone who has this access. So I do know what im talking about. In all due respect lol LAstly is MSFS wasnt such a hot mess from the ground up wed have more payware aircraft by now, hence the reason almost all 3rd party addons have been small props or turbo props that are easily simulated within the game already....Perfect example C208 and the new Kodiak....legit the same thing. 

6 hours ago, WestAir said:

Care for a friendly wager? Go to the PMDG forums and ask Robert if the SDK is too incomplete to make a study level airliner.

If he says yes, I'll buy your copy of either the NG3 or Fenix A320. If he says no, you buy me an NG3.

And your telling me....that Robert would admit to something like that? lol HIGHLY DOUBTFUL! but hey good luck

8 hours ago, WestAir said:

They began developing the Fenix A320 long before the FBW A320 existed.

With all due respect, you don't know what you're talking about. Not only has PMDG/ASOBO said the recent issues with NG3 development were not because of the SDK, but Iceman and others have said the SDK is not a roadblock to study level aircraft.

One last point.....there is no such thing as a "Study Level" aircraft in any at home sim....period.

49 minutes ago, united4life said:

One last point.....there is no such thing as a "Study Level" aircraft in any at home sim....period.

Very True. I was at lunch  yesterday talking to a retired Navy Helicopter Pilot and Instructor. I asked him if he had ever heard of the term "study level aircraft"...  He said , " No, what's that?"

28 minutes ago, Bobsk8 said:

Very True. I was at lunch  yesterday talking to a retired Navy Helicopter Pilot and Instructor. I asked him if he had ever heard of the term "study level aircraft"...  He said , " No, what's that?"

Good point....the closet youll get is a level D simulator

 

2 hours ago, united4life said:

One last point.....there is no such thing as a "Study Level" aircraft in any at home sim....period.

PMDG created the term in the first place. Asking them if their term applies here is completely reasonable.

Edited January 29, 20224 yr by WestAir

10 hours ago, jcomm said:

Regarding ASOBO and their recent Q&A Twitch, I was puzzled to find out that after all all that mess about the development being stopped due to an incontournable limitation imposed by the MFS SDK it turned ou to be a rather simple and already available feature that the PMDG programmers simply didn't know how to deal with !  Ridiculous to say the least !!!

Whatch from 00:53 on... where Sebastien explains what the "quirk" really was.... Laughable 🤣

That just shows the peril of the community jumping to too many conclusions based on limited information.  The sad thing is that when these assumptions are repeated often enough, they become dogma in people's minds.

14 hours ago, Fiorentoni said:

With all due respect for FBW and their amazing workt, how can Iceman say "there is no roadblock to study level aircraft", if neither he nor anyone else has been there yet for MSFS?

Because making and developing these things takes TIME. Thats why we don't have any study level aircraft... yet. 

7 hours ago, united4life said:

One last point.....there is no such thing as a "Study Level" aircraft in any at home sim....period.

Of course there is. 'Study level' is just a term to describe a certain level of systems accuracy and accurate replication of the flight deck, flight properties or otherwise. I know plenty of people who practiced their scan flows on home sims prior to/during a type rating. I never did but that was not for lack of accuracy, just ergonomics. 

6 hours ago, Bobsk8 said:

Very True. I was at lunch  yesterday talking to a retired Navy Helicopter Pilot and Instructor. I asked him if he had ever heard of the term "study level aircraft"...  He said , " No, what's that?"

Well he wouldn't unless he chose to use a home simulator, as it's not a widely used term in aviation. 

6 hours ago, united4life said:

Good point....the closet youll get is a level D simulator

To the real aircraft? Yes. But I spent many more hours during my type rating sitting in front of cardboard bombers like this with my ground school course mate than I ever did in the full flight sim. Just a photo from google. If pieces of cardboard stuck to a wall is 'study level' enough for the type rating ground school of major airlines then a home sim that lights up the overhead panel correctly is more than good enough.

 

Edited January 29, 20224 yr by 2reds2whites

7 hours ago, united4life said:

LAstly is MSFS wasnt such a hot mess from the ground up wed have more payware aircraft by now

It took years and years and years for any good payware aircraft to arrive to FSX or P3D. I have been around since FS4 and have seen every single release of every major simulator. Sure, MSFS isn't perfect, but it is light years ahead of any sim at release, ever. 

You've mentioned the SDK being incomplete. I'm curious. Do you have developer experience in programming? Because there are parts missing in the current SDK that weren't in P3Ds SDK mean it's incomplete? Can you explain more for me, please?

I see you're brand spanking new here at AVSIM. Welcome. How much experience do you have with flight simulation? And how does that experience allow you to make statements about the current SDK? I'm just trying to understand more clearly. 

11 hours ago, united4life said:

 In all due respect lol LAstly is MSFS wasnt such a hot mess from the ground up wed have more payware aircraft by now

Umm here we are not even two whole years into MSFS with this catalogue of payware.

FSX released in 2006....a decent 737 wasn't released until 2011(PMDG). 

11 hours ago, united4life said:

So I do know what im talking about.

Not sure if you are really new here or this is just an alt account to rile folks up, but you are dealing with ancient dinosaur simmers here like Bdub22.

So far I'm not convinced you are actually speaking from experience.🙃

 

 

 

1 hour ago, blueshark747 said:

you are dealing with ancient dinosaur simmers here like Bdub22.

😆😆😆

That made me laugh. Thank you! And yes, I agree. I have a feeling we're dealing with a young buck who hasn't been around for all that long. 

2 hours ago, blueshark747 said:

 

Not sure if you are really new here or this is just an alt account to rile folks up, but you are dealing with ancient dinosaur simmers here like Bdub22.

So far I'm not convinced you are actually speaking from experience.🙃

 

 

 

Im actually new here to AVSIM but Ive been arond flight sim for about 14 years. Im not trying to rile anyone up on the contray Ive never really dealt with the the AVSIM forums for this reason alone I dont like arguing or proving a point but I have worked on a handful of projects not only for FSX/P3D but also now with MSFS. And I respect all you that have been around longer then me. I should have maybe listened to my better judgment and stayed off the forums. 

6 hours ago, Bdub22 said:

It took years and years and years for any good payware aircraft to arrive to FSX or P3D. I have been around since FS4 and have seen every single release of every major simulator. Sure, MSFS isn't perfect, but it is light years ahead of any sim at release, ever. 

You've mentioned the SDK being incomplete. I'm curious. Do you have developer experience in programming? Because there are parts missing in the current SDK that weren't in P3Ds SDK mean it's incomplete? Can you explain more for me, please?

I see you're brand spanking new here at AVSIM. Welcome. How much experience do you have with flight simulation? And how does that experience allow you to make statements about the current SDK? I'm just trying to understand more clearly. 

I apologize in advance as Im afraid I may have helped stir the pot...wont point any figures but sometimes other comments make me want to comment back. Ive been around flight simulation for about 14 years now and have worked on multiple projects both in FSX/P3D as well as MSFS now. My main issue is change....im not a fan of it and its always hard to get used to something new. 

 

I should have worded it a little better as the SDK isn't incomplete so to speak but more so a Frankenstein of multiple layers...don't know how else I could better explain it. The folks at ASOBO have done great work on the sim so far but I feel they have missed the mark on what we as simmers experienced in both P3D and X plane and such. Flight dynamics are slightly different not entirely but just slightly, weather has been improved in MSFS but still needs a decent amount of work. As for PMDG I cannot speak to much on the subject at all, Work is coming along nicely as im sure youve been able to see but until its released no one will truly know. 

 

With that said I think ill leave it at that and will think before I speak and also will stay away from the forums as I dont like to get caught up in an argument. Ive done it for 14 years and I think that is were ill go back to...just enjoying flight sim for what its worth. Thank you again to all the guys and gals that have been in the AVSIM forums and community for so long I respect how much you have done and helped.