Kodiak vs Caravan

[Glenn Fitzpatrick 3,798]

4 hours ago, Virtual-Chris said:

but there’s probably a reason that most (all?) airliners have the AP on the glare shield.

Probably that you "operate" an airliner by flows procedures and autopilot rather than fly it .. no idea.

The  Kodiak and the Caravan are both multi million dollar aircraft, I quite am sure the designers had good reasons in both cases for making them the way they are.

 

[GaryK 201]

2 hours ago, Glenn Fitzpatrick said:

 

The  Kodiak and the Caravan are both multi million dollar aircraft, I quite am sure the designers had good reasons in both cases for making them the way they are.

 

Indeed.

Just as the developers had good reason to give the Kodiak the handling characteristics that it has. Unfortunately on my setup the elevator axis is twitchy.......for "twitchy" I mean it has what I would call "oversteer" on the vertical axis. I cannot believe that the real AC is like this. The real thing would be responsive and positive depending on airspeed just as a performance car would be both responsive and positive. The twitchiness must be something to do with the rig or controller I am using as I can't imagine it would be intentional.

All of my other AC's (stock and Purchased) react as I would expect them to so it's nothing to do with dirty pots or the like......using a Saitek X52

The Kodiak is a good ride otherwise and it is manageable for me but maybe my old setup lets it down. The Caravan is a pretty decent flyer for a stock AC IMO. For the kind of VFR flying I do it's a good choice.

 

Edited August 15, 2022 by GaryK
clarity

[Bert Pieke 7,584]

9 hours ago, Virtual-Chris said:

I was talking real-world. I’m no cockpit designer, but there’s probably a reason that most (all?) airliners have the AP on the glare shield. Maybe it’s less important in a small plane, but having those AP indicator lights and knobs at eye level would seem better than having to look down, in my humble opinion. Certainly for monitoring what the other pilot is doing, having it up high ensures it’s a more obvious gesture to adjust something, making it more overt to both crew members. The Quest designers clearly think differently though - maybe most Kodiak are flown with just a single pilot and your AP status is all at the top of the PFD anyway. Interestingly, there appears to be obvious space for the AP module above the MFD in the Kodiak, but for whatever reason (maybe as you suggest) they placed it below. 

 

There has been a steady effort in the airline industry over time to standardize cockpit layouts...  Older airliners tended to have the autopilot controls between the seats, and until fairly recently smaller aircraft like the King Air also used that placement.

For flightsimmers that is a particularly awkward location, and I was happy when the King Air C90GTX came out that put the autopilot up on the panel in front of the pilot.

Airliners nowadays tend to have duplicated or shared controls for the two pilots, whereas smaller aircraft tend to have a single pilot focus..  Having said that, I am no expert on cockpit ergonomics, so no idea why the Kodiak designers did what they did.. maybe they wanted to leave an option to install a different autopilot by the owner.. which is common in GA aircraft, but not in airliners..

Edited August 15, 2022 by Bert Pieke

[sd_flyer 6,029]

16 minutes ago, Bert Pieke said:

 

Airliners nowadays tend to have duplicate controls for the two pilots, whereas smaller aircraft tend to have a single pilot focus with only one autopilot control instrument..  Having said that, I am no expert on cockpit ergonomics, so no idea why the Kodiak designers did what they did.. maybe they wanted to leave an option to install a different autopilot by the owner.. which is common in GA aircraft, but not in airliners..

It's really hard to talk about ergonomic while sitting in front of computer screen because no matter how authentic is representation it cannot give you real 3d in cockpit perception . It's is much different in real the airplane. Something that may seem awkward actually pretty convenient and vice versa 

 I think by mid 70th GA manufacturers developed some kind of standard of knobs and gauges placement. So "6 pack" become pretty standard layout  for most of GA airplane as well as throttle, prop, mixture placement left to right.

99% of GA airplanes design to fly from both seats. Otherwise, it would be hard to preform check out of flight instruction. The reason you see most gauges mostly concentrated on the left ( pilot) side is because of a cost and a weight! I mean owner can replicate exact gauges and set up on right side, but it will increase maintenance cost and  decrease useful load! So why bother?

 In any case flying on the right seat while looking to left side of the panel is not a big deal. It took me a week to get to use to it when I was working on my CFI. Now it actually feels awkward to sit on the left seat LOL

[Bert Pieke 7,584]

8 minutes ago, sd_flyer said:

The reason you see most gauges mostly concentrated on the left ( pilot) side is because of a cost and a weight! I mean owner can replicate exact gauges and set up on right side, but it will increase maintenance cost and  decrease useful load! So why bother?

Agree!  And looking at the Caravan vs Kodiak layout again, shows that the Kodiak autopilot controls are located closer to the left side, whereas the Caravan has them located squarely in the middle of the panel (for shared use?)..

[Bert Pieke 7,584]

10 hours ago, Virtual-Chris said:

Interestingly, there appears to be obvious space for the AP module above the MFD in the Kodiak

Last guess... there appears to be room for the Garmin controller, but I have seen Kodiaks with different autopilots installed... would they possibly not fit in that space?

The Garmin controller is only 4" deep,  the Stec55X is 10" deep...

https://www.seaerospace.com/sales/product/Garmin/GMC-710

Edited August 15, 2022 by Bert Pieke

[jimcarrel 688]

Gee, I wonder why the controller sensitivities can be adjusted? Oh, I guess it's a useless utility.

[Virtual-Chris 682]

I think there’s something very wrong with the Kodiak.

I’ve been flying it no problem for a couple of weeks doing test flights, setting up my xTouch Mini, etc. I’ve always just flown it with the default load… pilot and co-pilot. I was starting to wonder why some people were complaining about this aircraft being twitchy, having issues on take-off or at low speeds. It seemed perfectly fine, and very similar to the Caravan. Just give it a bit more right rudder trim at takeoff and you’re good. 

Then I added a passenger and some cargo for my first NeoFly job… and immediately did a barrel roll to the left after takeoff into the ground near the end of the runway. My pilots career was over on his first flight 🙂 Remember, this is after dozens of flights with just a pilot/co-pilot. 

I really think there’s something bizarre with the way SWS has coded the flight model with any kind of load. I literally added one passenger and 112lbs of cargo and the plane became a completely different animal. It not only goes straight up and stalls almost instantly, but it’s immediately tumbling over to the left.  How this aircraft ever got approved by the FAA is a mystery to me. I thing the Wright Brothers first aircraft would handle better than this thing.

I then spent the better part of the night trying to take off without dying with various loads. It was doable, but certainly not elegant nor predictable. It’s perfectly fine unloaded, but its a ridiculously dangerous aircraft with a load, and I just can’t believe that’s how it is in real life. Somethings wrong.  

Edited August 23, 2022 by Virtual-Chris

[Glenn Fitzpatrick 3,798]

Interesting.   Did you increase your rotation speed to compensate for the extra weight ?

[sd_flyer 6,029]

5 hours ago, Virtual-Chris said:

I really think there’s something bizarre with the way SWS has coded the flight model with any kind of load. I literally added one passenger and 112lbs of cargo and the plane became a completely different animal. It not only goes straight up and stalls almost instantly, but it’s immediately tumbling over to the left.  How this aircraft ever got approved by the FAA is a mystery to me. I thing the Wright Brothers first aircraft would handle better than this thing.

Did you set rudder trim prior take off? Kodiak behave differently when loaded which is how is it suppose to be IRL .

There are two way to compensate for P factor right after lift off. First is to set  rudder trim to the right (not all the way 1/3 would do) . The second  one is using sufficient right rudder. Also you may want to increase Vr to 70+kts it can help surfaces become more efficient with airflow.

P.S. SWS got a chance to work with real Kodiak manufacturer and verify flight model with them.

 

[ParaMan 53]

5 hours ago, Virtual-Chris said:

I think there’s something very wrong with the Kodiak.

I’ve been flying it no problem for a couple of weeks doing test flights, setting up my xTouch Mini, etc. I’ve always just flown it with the default load… pilot and co-pilot. I was starting to wonder why some people were complaining about this aircraft being twitchy, having issues on take-off or at low speeds. It seemed perfectly fine, and very similar to the Caravan. Just give it a bit more right rudder trim at takeoff and you’re good. 

Then I added a passenger and some cargo for my first NeoFly job… and immediately did a barrel roll to the left after takeoff into the ground near the end of the runway. My pilots career was over on his first flight 🙂 Remember, this is after dozens of flights with just a pilot/co-pilot. 

I really think there’s something bizarre with the way SWS has coded the flight model with any kind of load. I literally added one passenger and 112lbs of cargo and the plane became a completely different animal. It not only goes straight up and stalls almost instantly, but it’s immediately tumbling over to the left.  How this aircraft ever got approved by the FAA is a mystery to me. I thing the Wright Brothers first aircraft would handle better than this thing.

I then spent the better part of the night trying to take off without dying with various loads. It was doable, but certainly not elegant nor predictable. It’s perfectly fine unloaded, but its a ridiculously dangerous aircraft with a load, and I just can’t believe that’s how it is in real life. Somethings wrong.  

Also, (and you may have already done it) but make sure you trim your elevator trim down so the white line is at about 90 degrees (parallel to the ground almost). It's definitely more challenging to take off than the caravan, but is rewarding when you get it down. I can't comment on how realistic it as though.

 

I don't really get involved in comparisons as to what aircraft is better. It's different for everyone.

[Virtual-Chris 682]

5 hours ago, Glenn Fitzpatrick said:

Interesting.   Did you increase your rotation speed to compensate for the extra weight ?

That’s a good question. Is the rotate speed that shows up on the ticker in the G1000 adjusted for load automatically or do I need to tell the G1000 what my Vr is somewhere? I didn’t change anything in the G1000 when I loaded it using the in sim weights and balances pop-up. 
 

And to answer the questions about trim… when I start up, the elevator trim is already at 10-o’clock which has worked fine for me. Are you saying it should be at 9-o’clock? I usually set my rudder trim to the right to the hash mark on the G1000 trim display. Where should it be?  

Edited August 23, 2022 by Virtual-Chris

[VFXSimmer 1,310]

2 hours ago, Virtual-Chris said:

That’s a good question. Is the rotate speed that shows up on the ticker in the G1000 adjusted for load automatically or do I need to tell the G1000 what my Vr is somewhere? I didn’t change anything in the G1000 when I loaded it using the in sim weights and balances pop-up. 
 

And to answer the questions about trim… when I start up, the elevator trim is already at 10-o’clock which has worked fine for me. Are you saying it should be at 9-o’clock? I usually set my rudder trim to the right to the hash mark on the G1000 trim display. Where should it be?  

https://www.youtube.com/c/missionarybushpilot

I'd suggest you start there, great instructional videos and fun real world flights to watch and later try out in the sim.  The Kodiak is a plane that you REALLY have to set trim appropriately or it will do the things you describe.  The link I sent you is a real world Kodiak pilot and according to him, the sim is behaving correctly.

[Virtual-Chris 682]

27 minutes ago, VFXSimmer said:

https://www.youtube.com/c/missionarybushpilot

I'd suggest you start there, great instructional videos and fun real world flights to watch and later try out in the sim.  The Kodiak is a plane that you REALLY have to set trim appropriately or it will do the things you describe.  The link I sent you is a real world Kodiak pilot and according to him, the sim is behaving correctly.

I may not have mentioned this already, but I'm a big fan of his channel and watch a lot of his stuff... agreed trimming is important, but in real-life it's not like threading a needle like it is in the sim.

[Virtual-Chris 682]

6 hours ago, ParaMan said:

Also, (and you may have already done it) but make sure you trim your elevator trim down so the white line is at about 90 degrees (parallel to the ground almost). It's definitely more challenging to take off than the caravan, but is rewarding when you get it down. I can't comment on how realistic it as though.

 

I don't really get involved in comparisons as to what aircraft is better. It's different for everyone.

I think there's this perception by some that because the Kodiak is so unstable in the sim, that it's more realistic... I don't think so.  It's certainly more challenging, but if it were this hard to get off the ground without crashing in real-life, we'd hear about it. 🙂