53 minutes ago, Bjoern said:

No such thing as "retirement" in the software business if it's your own ship.

Especially not now that they're making "inroads" (to quote Philip) into the level D sim arena.

 

2 hours ago, Sethos said:

You need the appropriate hardware for the 1.3 features but it's backwards compatible via profiling.

So what this means is that when v12 releases in the coming weeks (heretofore the "impending release of XP12"), a great many Intel GPU users will need to be made aware that even though the sim might start, they should temper their expectations because there will be a performance hit due to the Vulkan 1.3-only function calls being computed by the CPU instead of the GPU (because their GPU silicon can only stare blankly at them)?

In fact, performance might be bad enough that they might throw in the towel altogether and give up on the "impending release of XP12".

54 minutes ago, blingthinger said:

So what this means is that when v12 releases in the coming weeks (heretofore the "impending release of XP12"), a great many Intel GPU users will need to be made aware that even though the sim might start, they should temper their expectations because there will be a performance hit due to the Vulkan 1.3-only function calls being computed by the CPU instead of the GPU (because their GPU silicon can only stare blankly at them)?

In fact, performance might be bad enough that they might throw in the towel altogether and give up on the "impending release of XP12".

This is really a ridiculous red herring.  Nobody should expect to run a recent sim platform on an intel integrated GPU.  And it's absurd to suggest that that LR is targeting development towards iGPU-based systems.  

In 2021, the Navigraph flight sim survey said 3.7% of the respondents were using the intel iGPU for their sims, and I'd wager than nearly all of them were running really old legacy sims like FS9 or XP9 or even earlier.  Vulkan 1.3 has driver support on nVidia GPUs going as far back as Maxwell Gen 1 (GTX750).  This is a non-issue except for a tiny fringe group of users who probably don't have the funds for XP12 any more than they do for a modern system with a discrete GPU.

 

1 hour ago, Bob Scott said:

This is really a ridiculous red herring.  Nobody should expect to run a recent sim platform on an intel integrated GPU.  And it's absurd to suggest that that LR is targeting development towards iGPU-based systems.  

In 2021, the Navigraph flight sim survey said 3.7% of the respondents were using the intel iGPU for their sims, and I'd wager than nearly all of them were running really old legacy sims like FS9 or XP9 or even earlier.  Vulkan 1.3 has driver support on nVidia GPUs going as far back as Maxwell Gen 1 (GTX750).  This is a non-issue except for a tiny fringe group of users who probably don't have the funds for XP12 any more than they do for a modern system with a discrete GPU.

Red herring?? You're insinuating I'm trying to intentionally mislead people?

12% of XP users are on Intel GPUs. Tiny fringe group? Not exactly a worthless number for an indie game studio.

http://dashboard.x-plane.com/

What's more, my question has just as much technical merit as general public notification. 

When a GPU cannot interpret the VK1.3 driver calls, the processing gets shipped off to the CPU if it even runs at all. This generally drastically slows the frame rate. It's called software rending. I fully expect that to happen here and was seeking confirmation. Actually this was my second attempt given that you deleted my first post, which was both entirely innocuous and made without having seen your declaration of "stop talking about Vulkan".

Do you want to know why I'm interested in this??? I very much doubt it, but here you go anyways: because I once took my Intel-GPU laptop to a career fair with XP running to get the kids to care about math and engineering. You know... that laptop that I didn't just throw away into the garbage dump?

But what might be most revolting about your post and tone is the conclusion that Intel GPU users are obviously not wealthy enough to afford discrete GPUs or even a XP license.

Also, since you tossed out the red herring on Nvidia, the GTX 745 is the lowest-end discrete Nvidia card that can handle VK1.3.

Well, 

I honestly would never consider running one of these new flightsims in an Intel-based laptop.  I used to run Aerowinx PSX on one of these laptops, and I could notice the difference from running this rather "simple" graphics-wise flight simulator on my old desktop with a 750 Nvidia card. It was quite noticeable.

I did see XP11 running acceptably on a Macbook Pro, but even at medium settings it struggled under heavier weather scenarios or more densely populated "autogen" areas.

Last year I built my new rig just for MFS, and I had built the previous iteration for MS FLIGHT. Whenever I feel that a flight simulator really deserves the investment I try to upgrade.

My suggestion is that you wait for XP12 to get released and consider running the demo and trying the lowest graphics settings to check if it's acceptable, at the same time helping you to find out if an upgrade is worth the investment. It's a cost-beneftit problem...

OFC an intel card like your's would probably run one of my preferred ever flightsims acceptably - FLIGHT UNLIMITED 3, or even FS9, or Flight Assignement ATP and Airline Simulator 2, and a few more.... I wish I had such a laptop back then... 

Edited August 18, 20223 yr by jcomm

Maybe a hardware thread would be suitable here.

and ignore mSparks he loves arguing for the sake of it. There’s no base to his claim about Windows. The only factor that would exclude a pc from running XP12 is the hardware and the Vulkan driver, not the OS itself. 
Windows 7 for example is not suited because there is no up to date Vulkan supported.

Otherwise all three main OS are equally supported out of the box.

56 minutes ago, soaring_penguin said:

Maybe a hardware thread would be suitable here.

and ignore mSparks he loves arguing for the sake of it. There’s no base to his claim about Windows. The only factor that would exclude a pc from running XP12 is the hardware and the Vulkan driver, not the OS itself. 
Windows 7 for example is not suited because there is no up to date Vulkan supported.

Otherwise all three main OS are equally supported out of the box.

Exactly,

16 hours ago, mSparks said:

 

I'm just pointing out that I expect microsoft NTs marginal lead of 59% of desktops to vanish in XP12 when 10% of XP11 windows users - 80% of windows NT machines - cant even get passed the loading screen.

 

🤔

2 hours ago, soaring_penguin said:

Otherwise all three main OS are equally supported out of the box.

Support comes in all shapes and sizes, there is also support by hardware manufacturers, support by the OS developers and support from the software developers for those operating systems and their APIs.

It makes no sense for XP12 to spend significant development time crippling its graphics capabilities the way others have in order to support 80% of the windows desktop market - and Laminar "didnt bother" doing so.

If nothing else just because these people will still have XP11 and its subordinates.

Edited August 18, 20223 yr by mSparks

17 minutes ago, mSparks said:

Support comes in all shapes and sizes, there is also support by hardware manufacturers, support by the OS developers and support from the software developers for those operating systems and their APIs.

It makes no sense for XP12 to spend significant development time crippling its graphics capabilities the way others have in order to support 80% of the windows desktop market - and Laminar "didnt bother" doing so.

If nothing else just because these people will still have XP11 and its subordinates.

I hope you understand that the 80% market share is where most money originates for all game developers.

It's good that LR does make money on the mobile app but as a serious simmer I wouldn't use a mobile to simulate a flight. 

I would not want to be locked down into a Linux / Mac OS environment and not enjoy DCS / il2

And it's pure nonsense that XP11 under windows does not go past the loading screen

8 minutes ago, Humpty said:

where most money originates for all game developers.

Not Laminar - they are "only" 10% of XP11 users - that's enough to push windows desktop into the majority OS, definitely enough to cause quite some noise when they find out the hard way they weren't catered for or supported.

But they are insignificant in terms of Laminars revenue - which comes almost in its entirety from commercial customers spending $$$ for highly customised systems and non desktop POSIX systems like Android and iOS.

In fact not anyone tbh, there hasn't been a notable new software millionaire targeting windows desktop for like 2 decades now, pretty much since Steve Jobs forbid including Flash on the iphone.

If these ladies and gents actually want the graphics software upgrades LR have invested in - they are going to HAVE to upgrade their hardware one way or another, and hardware for windows is currently the most expensive option to do so.

Edited August 18, 20223 yr by mSparks

2 minutes ago, mSparks said:

Not Laminar - they are "only" 10% of XP11 users - that's enough to push windows desktop into the majority OS, definitely enough to cause quite some noise when they find out the hard way they weren't catered for or supported.

But they are insignificant in terms of Laminars revenue - which comes almost in its entirety from commercial customers spending $$$ for highly customised systems and non desktop POSIX systems like Android and iOS.

In fact not anyone tbh, there hasn't been a notable new software millionaire targeting windows desktop for like 2 decades now, pretty much since Steve Jobs forbid including Flash on the iphone.

If these ladies and gents actually want the graphics software upgrades LR have invested in - they are going to HAVE to upgrade their hardware one way or another, and hardware for windows is currently the most expensive option to do so.

just posting a couple of shot from x-plane statistics "Last updated: 2021-09-14 04:03:26" 

 

 

If one wants all the bells and whistles then they would need to upgrade the hardware.

As I mentioned earlier , a serious simmer would not touch a mobile flight sim. 

 

4 minutes ago, Humpty said:

If one wants all the bells and whistles then they would need to upgrade the hardware.

As I mentioned earlier , a serious simmer would not touch a mobile flight sim. 

Dont disagree, although I do find it mildly amusing that there is a very plausible prospect of  "serious simmer that cares about graphics" having windows as the minority of desktop users in the very near future.

LR arent the first to make this choice either - No Mans Sky was the first iirc, thats now sat floating on the top 10 list of steam revenue - with the steam deck taking #1 fairly recently.

https://steamdb.info/topsellers/2022W30/

15 minutes ago, mSparks said:

 "serious simmer

Plenty of serious simmers out there, may not fit your description but probably some more than you. We even put aside a linux section. quiet there isnt it.

30 minutes ago, mSparks said:

Dont disagree, although I do find it mildly amusing that there is a very plausible prospect of  "serious simmer that cares about graphics" having windows as the minority of desktop users in the very near future.

LR arent the first to make this choice either - No Mans Sky was the first iirc, thats now sat floating on the top 10 list of steam revenue - with the steam deck taking #1 fairly recently.

https://steamdb.info/topsellers/2022W30/

But a serious simmer would still not want to sim on mobile phone , if you talk about other games then it's totally a different ball game , in my office they play medal of Honor on the mobile. But a flight just not worth it on a mobile , only as a casual gamer but for someone who has proper controls it just don't cut it 

Also you are not ready to acknowledge that you are wrong about windows even after i have posted the latest data from LR

Edited August 18, 20223 yr by Humpty

15 minutes ago, Humpty said:

But a serious simmer would still not want to sim on mobile phone

This is an XP12 thread tho, not just the very tiny minority of people who consider themselves "serious simmers".

15 minutes ago, Humpty said:

Also you are not ready to acknowledge that you are wrong about windows even after i have posted the latest data from LR

I posted it first? it says 59% were using windows NT for their OS and the rest were on POSIX.

I do sometimes get my maths wrong, but if you take 10 away from 59 Im reasonably sure that comes to less than 50.

And thats ignoring the fact that as of 2022 the best selling devices that will run XP12 (macs, macbook airs and steam decks) dont run windows.

Edited August 18, 20223 yr by mSparks