MSFS: My 2 Year Review

[lwt1971 7,347]

2 hours ago, Virtual-Chris said:

Currently, SU9 seems pretty solid, and so far, SU10 seems ok, although it too has taken a step backwards in breaking HDR. Let’s hope they fix that and the DX12 issues. But what is in SU10 besides fixing DX12? Of course it makes the G1000NXi default in many aircraft but that’s just a bundling effort as the avionics were vastly improved months ago by Working Title.
.....
Im still left wondering what substantial outcomes the Asobo core team has created over the last two years. Scenery packs? Is that it? It seems like all their time has been spent trying to shoe-horn the sim to run on console hardware, and addressing all the issues that came out of that.
.....
After 2 years, the number of substantial improvements Asobo has made to the core sim is… what? Nothing really. Working Title deserves due credit but Asobo has been chasing their tail for two years. It’s debatable if the sim looks as good as the promotions 2 years ago. 

You seem to be on repeat with these points and especially that canard about XBox... No, there was no shoe-horning or lessening of the sim due to XBox, nor have they spent "all" their time on it, nor was there any mis-allocation of dev resources due to XBox, etc (repeating this silly conspiracy theory over and over again does not make it more true). Performance in general was on top of the requests lists by many PC users before SU5, and it was the obvious release vehicle to introduce their performance re-work. The XBox platform (which is a specialized Windows platform) sits on the low to mid-end of the current PC hardware capabilities spectrum, and there are many users with PCs less capable than XBox that also benefited from the performance enhancements. Yes on initial release (SU5) Asobo introduced some regressions and didn't make the software as scalable, but that's all been addressed by now (no, the live weather regressions are not due to XBox, that's due to METAR integration).

In terms of what improvements has gone into the sim in the last two years, what's coming in SU10 and after, it might be good to avail yourself to some basic understanding of how software development works. Not all of the Asobo team's development effort ongoing currently is on features coming in SU10.  The next release SU11 (i.e. the 40th anniv edition) is introducing some big new core features such as helicopters and gliders including the core flight dynamics engine improvements for those, default implementations of specific helis and gliders, etc. Another core new feature coming in SU11 is the enhanced atmospheric airflow simulation using their CFD technology expanding to a cocoon 20km around the aircraft along with visualizations of this airflow. All of this is taking up dev resource that started multiple SU releases ago.

In terms of what has actually been delivered in the core platform in the last two years (outside of WT's brilliant avionics) which you and some of the others are apparently puzzled about.. well, quite a lot actually... here's a sample list off the top of my head and I'm likely forgetting various other items:
- performance improvements and scaling where frame rate and smoothness is obviously better now than two years ago
- prop physics enhancements to the flight dynamics engine (and then application of in the C172)
- CFD and related enhancements to the flight dynamics engine (and then application of in the C172)
- softbody physics
- various visualizations and debugging tools for the flight dynamics engine and development of aircrafts (such as stall debugger, etc)
- various known and unseen improvements to the core platform and SDK that has enabled lots of excellent high fidelity aircrafts and other add-ons
- numerous world scenery updates
- various free aircrafts and for-pay aircrafts add-ons
- METAR integration in live weather, haze/fog, and other weather related improvements
- DX12
- DLSS
- tonnes of bug fixes
- brilliant business moves by the leadership and product team to bring in WT to the MS/Asobo fold, start partnerships with the likes of iniBuilds, etc
- etc

Of course there is plenty of room for improvement (i.e. ATC, AI, ground physics, etc) and all of these areas have been identified and are targeted for improvement. Many early mistakes Asobo were making have also been addressed since they actually listen to community feedback (i.e. votes-based request system that's actively monitored and factored into overall backlog prioritization, the introduction of open betas, and slowing down the pace of SU releases to improve stability).

With SU11 the sim is truly going to shine IMO, and like many on this forum I can unequivocally say having simmed for decades and with all the other current alternatives and ones before, MSFS is entirely in a league of its own AFAIAC. And I'll gladly take this MS/Asobo team with its unprecedented levels of transparency, frequency of free updates, and their overall commitment and passion to flight simming over any other, warts and all. Combine this initial core MS/Asobo team with the brilliant folks from WT who're pretty much part of that core, close partnerships with the likes of iniBuilds, freeware dream teams like FBW, and respected 3rd party devs with proven track records mostly all-in for MSFS (A2A, PMDG, Fenix, iniBuilds, JF, Milviz, FSW, etc)... well heck, that's just multiple layers of icing on the cake.
 

Edited August 29, 2022 by lwt1971

[Flusisniper 9]

If the thread creator allows, a look ahead. I often fly legs of my world trip together with koschi. Some may know him from flightsim.to. A bushtrip developer from the early days of MSFS. Two sides of the same coin showed up in conversations with him about the MSFS. His deep joy that the MSFS offers this wonderful option Bushtrips for freeware developers. On the other side his annoyance that intermediate changes destroyed older bushtrips. I would wish for the future, that MS/Asobo does not tear with the backside something, which worked well before. Otherwise, the community is healthy, the simulator is increasingly stable and the unspeakable part of older gentlemen who didn't want to give MSFS a chance is visibly falling silent. All in all, I like the development very much, keep it up Mr. Neumann. 👍

[Virtual-Chris 682]

20 minutes ago, lwt1971 said:

With SU11 the sim is truly going to shine
 

Seriously? That's awesome. I think that's been said about every sim update so far.  

SU10 was supposed to make the sim truly shine. It's turning out to be "meh" with guarded optimism that they can deliver it without making it worse than SU9.

There's always lots to look forward to, but when it actually arrives it's often saddled with some compromise or needs a hot fix to make it work.

A lot of what's on your list, is stuff that's just trying to keep the sim running, as every release typically introduces some new compromise with fidelity, night lighting, LOD, performance or something else, that then drives fixes in the next update (if it doesn't demand a hot fix right away).  Asobo is constantly fixing stuff they broke last release or two releases ago.

I know a lot about software development having worked in that field my whole career, and I can tell you that this sim is a very complex undertaking, but that does not excuse the lack of progress.  Microsoft has the all the resources they need, they are just not choosing to apply them here. A good example is Nvidia needing to get involved implementing Microsoft's own DX12 technology in Microsoft's own product.

Edited August 29, 2022 by Virtual-Chris

[tweekz 2,165]

MSFS is still a floaty beast. And it's very "nervous" on the ground.

Real life Aribus pilots have troubles getting any of the Aribuses down in the touchdown zone almost every time they land (on streams).

[Simple B 141]

Fs2020 for Microsoft is a showcase for it's online, Ai and data services, it really has no current serious investment in VR technolgy.

Jorg managed to get this flight sim off the ground, selling this to his masters as a global service to demonstrate and improve the technology.

Microsoft are not interested in the small beans we flight simmers can feed them.

Little wonder in these early years the focus demanded by Microsoft is on the cloud services and tech that can be utilised by billions of users in the future avenues rather than VR which as yet is tech still finding it's feet that MS has no stake in.

Jorg is the go between, his bosses care about developing the wider tech, he has a passion for delivering this via flight sim.

Understand that the title is being funded by Microsoft, Asobo, likely allocted a yearly developememt budget by MS, funded in part by the income from FS and topped up by MS to further prove the viablity, concepts and opportunites in utilising Microsofts fledgling technologies.

This year, much excess budget is being dedicated to the 40th anniversary content, content for all.

Working Title are sub funded to deliver exceptional in game content for all ... Near 1 to 1 functionality tech for Garmin suites by the end of the year. Wonder where Microsoft really see the value in the investment there ...? Likely next year they move on to the flight planning/atc elelements.

Maybe next year there is more budget for weather/ ai and vr.

First Asobo need to stabilise the performance of the sim against the challenges presented by working with all the additional services.

This is not Laminar research, this is not an individuals dedication to providing the best technical home flight sim for flight simmers. It is a marketing show piece.

Enjoy what comes our way, and keep on badgering for the improvements, don't let your frustrations defeat the possibilities and enjoyment.

 

[wim123 758]

i think we should be glad to have something like this, despite its many issues.  if i fly bush nada problems, smooth all the way.

[lwt1971 7,347]

2 hours ago, Virtual-Chris said:

Seriously? That's awesome. I think that's been said about every sim update so far.  

SU10 was supposed to make the sim truly shine. It's turning out to be "meh" with guarded optimism that they can deliver it without making it worse than SU9.

My opinion that SU11 will truly shine is due to big new features like helis and gliders, and getting medium and high fidelity aircrafts included in the default fleet, etc... that obviously *does not* mean that other previous SUs didn't improve the sim or make it shine either.  In terms of big feature drops, SU5, SU7, SU8, and SU11 are the ones that stand out.

And SU10 was always mostly about DX12, DLSS, multiple-screens support, etc as the major new content.. if that is "meh" to you that's fine, it's not to others. No one was saying it's going to be a landmark SU, MS/Asobo certainly weren't.
 

2 hours ago, Virtual-Chris said:

.. but that does not excuse the lack of progress.  Microsoft has the all the resources they need, they are just not choosing to apply them here. A good example is Nvidia needing to get involved implementing Microsoft's own DX12 technology in Microsoft's own product.

If you want to sum up the last two years overall as "lack of progress", well that's your opinion I guess... and summing up that list of features introduced as "stuff that's just trying to keep the sim running" is also definitely some kind of take.

Saying "Microsoft has the all the resources they need, they are just not choosing to apply them here" however, is pure conjecture. As is "nVidia needing to get involved in implementing MS's own DX12 technology" lol.. how do you know that?

Edited August 29, 2022 by lwt1971

[Virtual-Chris 682]

9 minutes ago, lwt1971 said:

Saying "Microsoft has the all the resources they need, they are just not choosing to apply them here" however, is pure conjecture. As is "nVidia needing to get involved in implementing MS's own DX12 technology" lol.. how do you know that?

In a recent dev update the Asobo team said they were getting Nvidia involved to sort out the DX12 issues.

[lwt1971 7,347]

21 minutes ago, Virtual-Chris said:

In a recent dev update the Asobo team said they were getting Nvidia involved to sort out the DX12 issues.

Let's look at what they actually said: https://forums.flightsimulator.com/t/new-pc-update-1-27-16-0-august-19-2022/537438
"As per the discussion in yesterday’s Developer Q&A, we are also working with NVIDIA on driver related issues affecting DX12 memory optimizations, and will re-enable those changes once a fix is in place."

That does not equate to what you said: "nVidia needing to get involved in implementing MS's own DX12 technology".  MS obviously wrote and implemented the DX12 spec, and that spec is also closer to the GPU hardware than previous DX specs. MS/Asobo obviously have their MSFS code working quite good on AMD GPU hardware but not on Nvidia hardware, due to "driver related issues affecting DX12 memory optimizations" ... the sort of thing where a dev house like MS/Asobo would work with Nvidia isn't it? How do you know that the fix is not required in NVidia's driver code? Even if the fix ultimately is only in MSFS's code, that could be due to specifics/idiosyncrasies in the NVidia driver code, again something that requires discussion with NVidia.

 

Edited August 29, 2022 by lwt1971

[MrBitstFlyer 3,827]

4 hours ago, Johan217 said:

Being able to fly over my home area and recognize everyday landmarks (our local supermarket and even the fastfood restaurant we go to on Thursdays) straight-out-of-the-box makes it impossible for me to go back to any other flightsim.

Nice feature to have for low and slow vfr flying, but doesn't make a different sim a no go for me. How many times during an ILS approach do you need to spot a local fast food outlet?

[Virtual-Chris 682]

1 minute ago, lwt1971 said:

Let's look at what they actually said: https://forums.flightsimulator.com/t/new-pc-update-1-27-16-0-august-19-2022/537438
"As per the discussion in yesterday’s Developer Q&A, we are also working with NVIDIA on driver related issues affecting DX12 memory optimizations, and will re-enable those changes once a fix is in place."

That does not equate to what you said: "nVidia needing to get involved in implementing MS's own DX12 technology".  MS obviously wrote and implemented the DX12 spec, and that spec is also closer to the GPU hardware than previous DX specs. MS/Asobo obviously have their MSFS code working quite good on AMD GPU hardware but not on Nvidia hardware, due to "driver related issues affecting DX12 memory optimizations" ... the sort of thing where a dev house like MS/Asobo would work with Nvidia isn't it? How do you know that the fix is not required in NVidia's driver code? Even if the fix ultimately is only in MSFS's code, that could be due to specifics/idiosyncrasies in the NVidia driver code, again something that requires discussion with NVidia.

 

Yeah, I'm sure it's all Nvidia's problem. They haven't done DX12 before like Asobo has. /s

[lwt1971 7,347]

Just now, Virtual-Chris said:

Yeah, I'm sure it's all Nvidia's problem. They haven't done DX12 before like Asobo has. /s

Well you seem to know everything about how MS/Asobo works and software development in general, obviously we should take your word for it /s

[Virtual-Chris 682]

6 minutes ago, lwt1971 said:

Well you seem to know everything about how MS/Asobo works and software development in general, obviously we should take your word for it /s

I don't want to get into a long stupid argument about it... I can be absolutely wrong about Asobo and Nvidia. I may also not be giving Asobo adequate credit for what they've done, but I will NOT change my view that I'm very disappointed with the state of the sim after 2 years. Most of the issues I had 2 years ago have not been fixed. Thankfully the workarounds through mods and add-ons have greatly improved.  So it's good from that perspective.

Edited August 29, 2022 by Virtual-Chris

[cobalt 798]

9 minutes ago, MrBitstFlyer said:

Nice feature to have for low and slow vfr flying, but doesn't make a different sim a no go for me. How many times during an ILS approach do you need to spot a local fast food outlet?

He wasn't telling you what to think -- he was expressing his satisfaction with MSFS for VFR flight. Why must every statement be a source of debate? Or is it that for some folks, debate is all they are looking for?

Edited August 29, 2022 by cobalt

[Dermot McClusky 494]

24 minutes ago, cobalt said:

He wasn't telling you what to think -- he was expressing his satisfaction with MSFS for VFR flight. Why must every statement be a source of debate? Or is it that for some folks, debate is all they are looking for?

OH YEAH!?!?! HOW ABOUT WE TAKE THIS OUTSIDE, BUSTER??