2 minutes ago, snwboardn said:

I guess when they said this will be a 10 year project, they were literally going to give themselves 10 years to eventually get to all the bugs.

If you were only a fly on the wall in the room where planning meetings at MS/A occur.  IOW, you have no idea when they will tackle the various larger remaining issues w/ the sim and in very large part it continues to improve at a steady pace and we're not even near to the end of Year 3 of the alleged 10y service life.  

2 minutes ago, Noel said:

If you were only a fly on the wall in the room where planning meetings at MS/A occur.  IOW, you have no idea when they will tackle the various larger remaining issues w/ the sim and in very large part it continues to improve at a steady pace and we're not even near to the end of Year 3 of the alleged 10y service life.  

Agreed, but it is hard not to feel like management comes in and says. "well can you sell better AI on the marketplace? No? Okay, well let's focus on the ability to fly under bridges first."

@snwboardn,

So on one hand you are acting like Asobo is doing nothing, and yet FSHUD is going to fix everything very soon.....LOL

Edited May 3, 20233 yr by Ray Proudfoot
Long quoted post removed.

Just now, Bobsk8 said:

So on one hand you are acting like Asobo is doing nothing, and yet FSHUD is going to fix everything very soon.....LOL

Huh? Where did I say FSHUD is going to fix EVERYTHING soon? Did you fill that in by me saying "hope you get GA traffic before too long"

2 hours ago, snwboardn said:

Agreed, but it is hard not to feel like management comes in and says. "well can you sell better AI on the marketplace? No? Okay, well let's focus on the ability to fly under bridges first."

It's not hard for me--MSFS 2020 is a ginormous project utilizing features never before attempted and it's well on its way to maturity, is mature enough for so called study-level plane ware to find a home, for all aspects of IFR flight to be emulated well.  We're not privy to the master plan, all of the considerations involved, so in order to keep in sync with reality, we have to appreciate the remarkable achievements thus far and live w/ the fact we're not privy to the master plan.  You can conjecture all day long about why priorities are where they are, but that is conjecture which is cheap.

3 hours ago, qqwertzde said:

It is more modern and controls traffic, but it is also a highly scripted workflow.

How come you call it scripted? In what way exactly? 

16 minutes ago, tup61 said:

How come you call it scripted? In what way exactly? 

Does it micro manage things like Sids and Stars, in other words if you are flying a star and it is giving the pilot headings and altitudes, because that is not how it works in real life? 

5 minutes ago, Bobsk8 said:

Does it micro manage things like Sids and Stars, in other words if you are flying a star and it is giving the pilot headings and altitudes, because that is not how it works in real life? 

No, it gives you normal descent clearances ("descend to FL 150") which you then follow via the STAR, respecting the STAR alt restrictions of course (I know in the US it's mostly a "descend via the STAR" clearance, which however is nothing different from "descent to the final altitude given on the final waypoint of the STAR, respecting the alt restrictions on the way", so it's the same result basically). After the final point of the STAR it will vector you to the IAF. Works fine for me and feels like what I would have on Vatsim on normal days.

No idea what he means by "scripted" - you can ask for different cruise altitudes, you can ask for direct-tos, you can ask for earlier descents etc. I don't really find anything that's missing from normal operations with ATC in real life, except for separation work (like different speeds on approach), that's probably the one thing that's missing. Well that and non-normal stuff like diversions, vectors around storm clouds, emergencies, holds etc., but that's not something you get on Vatsim either except for very specific situations.

1 hour ago, tup61 said:

How come you call it scripted? In what way exactly? 

I only tried FSHud 3 times. The first time it generated a CTD. The second time it didn't accept a request for a runway change (it did, but then it was grumpy and didn't talk to me anymore). So only one real try: you request your clearance by pressing 1 (or the like), then request start-up/pushback pressing 2, then taxi pressing 3. After that, most of the action was taken over by the co-pilot (readback, frequency change, ...). I almost felt like a passenger.

Yes, what the co-pilot does in FSHud is repetitive, but I still find it challenging to read back a full clearance on Vatsim or Pilot2ATC, or to receive all messages correctly and act accordingly. FSHud takes all of that away. Add to that that I often fly to smaller airports, where there isn't much traffic to be handled, and you get why the appeal of FSHud to me is not that large. 

4 hours ago, qqwertzde said:

I only tried FSHud 3 times. The first time it generated a CTD. The second time it didn't accept a request for a runway change (it did, but then it was grumpy and didn't talk to me anymore). So only one real try: you request your clearance by pressing 1 (or the like), then request start-up/pushback pressing 2, then taxi pressing 3. After that, most of the action was taken over by the co-pilot (readback, frequency change, ...). I almost felt like a passenger.

Yes, what the co-pilot does in FSHud is repetitive, but I still find it challenging to read back a full clearance on Vatsim or Pilot2ATC, or to receive all messages correctly and act accordingly. FSHud takes all of that away. Add to that that I often fly to smaller airports, where there isn't much traffic to be handled, and you get why the appeal of FSHud to me is not that large. 

But that’s how it’s supposed to work.

While you fly the aircraft, the Pilot Not Flying handles all radio calls.

At the moment I am flying round the world, this is what I usually do all the time, every time a different airport to not make flightsimming boring.

I just took off from NZCH with new FSHud Beta and while I was taxiing there were two Air New Zealand on final, you hear them and see them while they land and taxi....

It could not be less scripted for me, seeing and hearing the other traffic gives a big immersion for me!

In Prepar3d I allways used Voxatc because it also generated and controlled traffic by itself.

Edited May 4, 20233 yr by rob0203

6 hours ago, qqwertzde said:

I only tried FSHud 3 times. The first time it generated a CTD. The second time it didn't accept a request for a runway change (it did, but then it was grumpy and didn't talk to me anymore). So only one real try: you request your clearance by pressing 1 (or the like), then request start-up/pushback pressing 2, then taxi pressing 3. After that, most of the action was taken over by the co-pilot (readback, frequency change, ...). I almost felt like a passenger.

Yes, what the co-pilot does in FSHud is repetitive, but I still find it challenging to read back a full clearance on Vatsim or Pilot2ATC, or to receive all messages correctly and act accordingly. FSHud takes all of that away. Add to that that I often fly to smaller airports, where there isn't much traffic to be handled, and you get why the appeal of FSHud to me is not that large. 

I‘m quite sure FSHud cannot generate CTDs since it‘s only connected via SimConnect, like GSX. Anyway it seems like what actually bothers you is that you cannot „talk“ to ATC with your voice. P2ATC might be more suited to you, because it uses voice recognition.  But it‘s just as „scripted“ as you described here, because, well ATC comms are heavily scripted in real life too. You ask for clearance, you ask for taxi etc. Doing it by voice does not change that aspect.
That said I used P2ATC and it‘s not really „better“ in regards to ATC interaction, it won‘t do „more“ than FSHud. It does not control other AI traffic (= AI ignores P2ATC and will 100% line up on the runway when you are over the threshold…).

7 hours ago, qqwertzde said:

I only tried FSHud 3 times. The first time it generated a CTD. The second time it didn't accept a request for a runway change (it did, but then it was grumpy and didn't talk to me anymore). So only one real try: you request your clearance by pressing 1 (or the like), then request start-up/pushback pressing 2, then taxi pressing 3. After that, most of the action was taken over by the co-pilot (readback, frequency change, ...). I almost felt like a passenger.

Yes, what the co-pilot does in FSHud is repetitive, but I still find it challenging to read back a full clearance on Vatsim or Pilot2ATC, or to receive all messages correctly and act accordingly. FSHud takes all of that away. Add to that that I often fly to smaller airports, where there isn't much traffic to be handled, and you get why the appeal of FSHud to me is not that large. 

Hm, I think you indeed like the added challenge of using your voice. That's fine. But then FSHud is not for you right now. Concerning the other scripted things: I never feel like a passenger when using FSHud because I have to do everything FSHud tells me to do, like changing frequency, setting squawk, setting the proper altitudes, program the assigned procedures... I actually like that I do NOT have to press 1 or 2 or whatever to acknowledge something (like with default ATC). When ATC talks to me it's quite normal imho that 'I' reply 'just like that', without me having to press a key. The ONLY time you have to press a number key is when you are supposed to do something that totally depends on your decision, like asking for clearance, starting the engines, request taxi, request take off... the list isn't THAT long. You can't expect an addon to take those decisions for you, nor would you want it to do.

I don't see how FSHud is more scripted than any other ATC addon. I think it is even less scripted because you hardly have to do anything to start a flight... Start the program, load a (SimBrief) flight with one click and off you go. Try that in PF3 of P2ATC. Some other ATC addons require quite a lot of input for each and every flight before you can even contact them...! (FSHud only requires input whenever a flightplan hasn't been set up well enough by SB, which DOES happen.)

So yes, all in all the only thing that makes FSHud a no go for you right now is the lack of voice control. I myself prefer to not use my voice: I would never use such an option. To each his own. 😉

4 hours ago, pan pan pan said:

But that’s how it’s supposed to work. While you fly the aircraft, the Pilot Not Flying handles all radio calls.

In a jet, yes. But not if you fly a Beechcraft KingAir that can be flown by a single pilot. And that happens to be my favorite plane 🙂

2 hours ago, Fiorentoni said:

I‘m quite sure FSHud cannot generate CTDs since it‘s only connected via SimConnect, like GSX. 

You are correct, I should have stated this more carefully. When I first used FSHud, a CTD happened. It is not reproducible, so I don't know what caused it.

1 hour ago, tup61 said:

Hm, I think you indeed like the added challenge of using your voice. That's fine. But then FSHud is not for you right now.

....

I don't see how FSHud is more scripted than any other ATC addon.

My plan was to use VoiceAttack in conjunction with FSHud so that I could map voice commands to specific keys. Using voice feels much more realistic to me. But, at least for now, I dropped that plan and returned to Pilot2ATC.

As for scripting: ATC communication is a very formal way of interaction that always follows a workflow. The difference is that FSHud manages most parts of it, while I can do everything myself in Pilot2ATC. To me, that is a bit like following an abbreviated checklist versus following an amplified checklist when preparing an airplane for a flight. I always do the latter, I like to be busy 🙂

 

2 minutes ago, qqwertzde said:

The difference is that FSHud manages most parts of it, while I can do everything myself in Pilot2ATC.

Hm, okay, well... I still don't really see what FSHud manages more than P2ATC does... I also like to be busy and don't like things that are too scripted (which is why I am not a fan of FSCrew and things like that). I also like to be NOT busy doing things I shouldn't be doing (like preparing a flight in all detail like you have to do in some ATC addons). But anyway, it's great to have all these options nowadays, isn't it! Everyone should use what suits him er her best! 😉