2 minutes ago, kerosene31 said:

You will have no problems installng and using it, but you'd need to dig through the EULA.  You may not own it.  

Just because there's no method for them to prevent you from doing it doesn't mean that is allowed with the license.

I honestly have no idea how the FS 2000 EULA worked for the record, and not interested in reading it on a Friday afternoon (or anytime lol).  

They have always been honor based so as long as you didn't violate the terms you maintained rights.  IF you violated the terms they could ask you to destroy the SW.  

25 minutes ago, tpete61 said:

Buying or Renting Software is totally irrelevant to streaming or being cloud dependent.

 

The original post was about cloud access.  It has morphed into licensing. 

It also has everything to do with how easily your access to a copy can be terminated as evidenced by the article.  Can you really not see the relevance and applicability between the original article and MSFS's cloud deployment or just being difficult?

The old EULA's were essentially right to use and you would have no issues running FS9 today nor would you be violating a EULA.  Once the license is associated to software in the cloud however the ability to terminate access is absolutely relevant. 

I would have to check but I'm pretty sure if I log into LM's site all of my P3D installers over the years are still there, I have access as long as I don't violate the terms which we all were with P3D anyway, there is NOTHING academic about me but that's another conversation LOL

 

  

Edited April 11, 20251 yr by psolk

47 minutes ago, Farlis said:

You still don't own it. You purchased a license to use it.

You could have fooled me, I’d like to see Microsoft turn up to my house and remove it. 

Talking of Ubi: I've long held the thought that MSFS might have gone in a direction more to my tastes (less' Gamey' for want of a better word) if MS had partnered with them rather than Asobo

1 hour ago, psolk said:

It also has everything to do with how easily your access to a copy can be terminated as evidenced by the article.

This is par the course for an online title though. Eventually the servers are going to be turned off. This isn’t specific to MSFS, this is pretty standard stuff for a GaaS, games as a service which MSFS and in turn The Crew fully fits the bill.

Their ability to enforce it doesn't change the fact that you don't own it.  The technology didn't exist back then.  

I couldn't find the MSFS 2000 EULA easily, but I found the Windows 2000 one, and yes, they can ask you to destroy the media.

Quote

TERMINATION. Without prejudice to any other rights, Microsoft may cancel this EULA if you do not abide by the terms and conditions of this EULA, in which case you must destroy all copies of the Product and all of its component parts.

You do not own it.  Realistically, are MS lawyers going to knock on your door?  No, but that doesn't change the facts.  

Before cloud, they had no practical way to enforce it, but the license was no different.  

36 minutes ago, Lucky38i said:

This is par the course for an online title though. Eventually the servers are going to be turned off. This isn’t specific to MSFS, this is pretty standard stuff for a GaaS, games as a service which MSFS and in turn The Crew fully fits the bill.

Oh yeah, never said it was specific to MSFS by any means but even with most titles on Steam for example the games are still local to my machine.  Would it be usable if Steam shut down, I doubt it but for now I can digitally touch it 😉 LOL  J/K That sounded like a Gold commercial.  I think The Crew was the first time I personally have heard of a lawsuit over an aaS shutting down but that doesn't mean it's the first by any means. 

 

36 minutes ago, kerosene31 said:

Their ability to enforce it doesn't change the fact that you don't own it.  The technology didn't exist back then.  

I couldn't find the MSFS 2000 EULA easily, but I found the Windows 2000 one, and yes, they can ask you to destroy the media.

You do not own it.  Realistically, are MS lawyers going to knock on your door?  No, but that doesn't change the facts.  

Before cloud, they had no practical way to enforce it, but the license was no different.  

The key there is "if you do not abide by the T&C"   There is no "expiration" date or termination date in the Eula but they do call out lack of support if you continue to use it which you obviously can't do with streaming games...  

As I said earlier, it's also not just games.  More and more infrastructure Hardware now has subscription licenses and/or the entire management plane in the cloud that can be shut down if you don't keep the subscriptions active.  It's just the modern way of licensing and agreed, before cloud, license enforcement was VERY tough unless their was some sort of license management system and even then there was virtually no way to confirm it.    We had to threaten a 3rd party compliance audit and even that was usually just to get them to upgrade it's unlikely we would shut anything down unless like MS says they violated the T's and C's pretty blatantly.   

 

Edited April 11, 20251 yr by psolk

2 hours ago, psolk said:

  More and more infrastructure Hardware now has subscription licenses and/or the entire management plane in the cloud that can be shut down if you don't keep the subscriptions active.  It's just the modern way of licensing and agreed, before cloud, license enforcement was VERY tough unless their was some sort of license management system and even then there was virtually no way to confirm it.    We had to threaten a 3rd party compliance audit and even that was usually just to get them to upgrade it's unlikely we would shut anything down unless like MS says they violated the T's and C's pretty blatantly.   

 

Thats... exactly what I said and have been saying.  

Enforcement or not doesn't change the facts.

I'm not supposed to jay walk either, but I'm pretty sure I can make it across my street and back and not have any problems.  It doesn't mean that it isn't against the law.  

 

I'm kind of shocked that we're having this discussion in 2025 to be honest.  If poeple just want to pretend about the good old days, I am sorry for getting in the way of that. 

END USER LICENSE AGREEMENT
This copy of Aerowinx Precision Simulator (herein
called “Software”) is not sold, it is licensed. The Software
includes the operations manual, the file Aerowinx.jar, and
the contents of the folders Navigation and Visuals. The
Software is protected by copyright laws and treaties, and
is the intellectual property of...

 

The above paragraph is more direct than many, and pretty clear and easy to read. The first sentence is the one that's germane to this post ("[it] is not sold, it is licensed"). I just repost it here because it's from 2014, underlining the point that this is nothing new. The paragraph was printed on the DVD sleeve and reproduced in the manual. It's the shortest EULA I've ever seen, only 180 words. Short enough to print in full on the DVD sleeve. And it was sold on DVD, not streamed or downloaded.

 

Edited April 12, 20251 yr by prolixindec

I guess if they worded it to say "sold" then that would imply they had sold you the actual code and that you now owned the rights to the code and not them

So it's always gonna be worded as a Licence or similar  even if you buy physical media with the software on

23 hours ago, psolk said:

Not sure you understand perpetual licensing.  IE the right to use as long as you own with indefinite unrestricted use... 

Ergo, can't be revoked.  Not a subscription license

It's your understanding that needs to be refreshed. A perpetual license just means they won't charge you a subscription fee to use it. They can still revoke your access to the license at any time.

In the old days, that didn't matter because there's no practical way to revoke access to a license for software that's self contained on a floppy disk. They'd have to send someone into your house to steal the disk back, and you DID own the disk itself, just not the software on it.

There's a reason most software is activated over the internet these days. Even stuff that's a perpetual license gets activated via an activation server, and the reason they do that is so that they can revoke your access to the software whenever they feel like it by simply turning the activation servers off. Adobe is notorious for doing this. People who bought perpetual licenses back when such things were available found they couldn't reinstall the software after Adobe turned the servers off, and when asked Adobe said that the software is at end of life so their access to it was revoked.

From where I sit this is wrong. If a company turns the activation servers off for a perpetual-license software, they should be required to release a crack so that people can still register their software (which Adobe actually did end up having to do with CS2, but not with subsequent versions). 

What you said should be correct and it should be illegal for a company to revoke access to perpetual-licensed software you paid for, but it's not.

All that aside, I think the Ubisoft lawsuit is a little absurd. It's a game with exclusively online content. Obviously that's going to go away some day. Lots of other MMOs that you bought up front have shut down over the years and no one thinks that's illegal because it isn't. It's very clear that an MMO (which this game essentially was even if it didn't follow the usual run around and stab things formula) is not going to exist until the end of time.

I know MSFS 2020 and 2024 will not exist until the end of time either, and it's going to really suck if they decide to shut those sims down without having a replacement for them. On the other hand, both of those sims are a lot more enjoyable than FSX, so I'm willing to take the risk that they won't shut them down until something better comes along.

 

Edited April 12, 20251 yr by eslader

20 hours ago, Bobsk8 said:

Most people don't know that if they financed their car, you don't own that either. The bank or finance company owns it, and you are renting it from them. 

Tell that to the government when it taxes you 😂

20 hours ago, psolk said:

The original post was about cloud access.  It has morphed into licensing.   

Hhahaha, this sounds like the old P3D EULA discussions. I thought they had went away when people moved to MSFS.

This thread is a strong testament to just how boring it is when one gets to cruise altitude in a desktop flight sim 😑

Always fascinated by how bored someone has to be to take the time to comment on something they have no interest in to tell everyone it doesn't interest them.... Baffling 🤷‍♂️

I treat it like a long‑term rental: fun while the servers run, but I budget with the idea that add‑ons might not hold value forever if support ever stops.