2 hours ago, Kevin_28 said:

I would imagine that it's not that bad considering MK and RSR confirmed that they are doing contracted work with Boeing, I believe.

That's kind of the only thing Boeing is good at right now, is subbing out simple tasks they didn't want to bother with doing themselves.  But if PMDG still can't even have permission to include the extremely basic and common documentation they used to be able to use, they obviously don't have any real level of permission from Boeing to do, well, anything. 

I don't know how they managed to convince simmers they ever had any kind of special or exclusive access to, or permission from, Boeing to do anything.  They're just a video game and modeling company.  I can see Boeing subbing out some simple modeling or animation work to them, but beyond they... Boeing really couldn't be bothered with desktop flight sim.  

10 hours ago, Stearmandriver said:

That's kind of the only thing Boeing is good at right now, is subbing out simple tasks they didn't want to bother with doing themselves.  But if PMDG still can't even have permission to include the extremely basic and common documentation they used to be able to use, they obviously don't have any real level of permission from Boeing to do, well, anything. 

I don't know how they managed to convince simmers they ever had any kind of special or exclusive access to, or permission from, Boeing to do anything.  They're just a video game and modeling company.  I can see Boeing subbing out some simple modeling or animation work to them, but beyond they... Boeing really couldn't be bothered with desktop flight sim.  

P3D PMDG users still had access to Boeing Manuals but only read only. I printed the manual that came with FS9 version, but then Boeing told PMDG to stop due to copyright. Then it became read only,

I still have the manual in two large ring binders. You can buy the manual from Boeing if you have deep pockets, but not for re-distribution.

Edited April 17, 20251 yr by G-RFRY

There are absolutely no copyright issues with developers making 3D models of different aircraft and selling them in a flight sim.  Places like Turbosquid sell them by the thousands.  

Gulfstream used to issue C and D's several years ago, and Textron would occasionally do the same, but it simply doesn't happen anymore.

Let's say you are a company that manufactures some sort of part for Boeing (or any other company for that matter). That would mean your company obviously has all the design spec documentation and whatever else is needed. You are not going to be sharing any of that documentation or the information in it to anyone. That documentation is also very limited as to who can actually have access to it in your company. Having worked at a company involved in such things, I can't count how many hours of classes and tests on intellectual property (IP) I have had to take. If Boeing and/or Airbus is providing information to PMDG or Fenix (or anyone else) to aid in proper system simulation, neither is going to discuss it or provide any documentation about it. It is true that PMDG was provided outdated and redacted manuals to provide to customers in the past (I still have them), but Boeing changed their minds on continuing it. None of them do it now. Even the airline pilots doing youtube are heavily restricted on what they can share about procedures in their airline. You don't see them releasing video of themselves in the real aircraft demonstrating procedures for example.

1 hour ago, rjquick said:

Let's say you are a company that manufactures some sort of part for Boeing (or any other company for that matter). That would mean your company obviously has all the design spec documentation and whatever else is needed. You are not going to be sharing any of that documentation or the information in it to anyone. That documentation is also very limited as to who can actually have access to it in your company. Having worked at a company involved in such things, I can't count how many hours of classes and tests on intellectual property (IP) I have had to take. If Boeing and/or Airbus is providing information to PMDG or Fenix (or anyone else) to aid in proper system simulation, neither is going to discuss it or provide any documentation about it. It is true that PMDG was provided outdated and redacted manuals to provide to customers in the past (I still have them), but Boeing changed their minds on continuing it. None of them do it now. Even the airline pilots doing youtube are heavily restricted on what they can share about procedures in their airline. You don't see them releasing video of themselves in the real aircraft demonstrating procedures for example.

This makes it sound as if there's some classified or non-public technical information to be gotten from Boeing.  About an airliner?  There absolutely is not.  Anyone can buy a set of maintenance manuals for a 737.  Anyone can buy the 737 Cockpit Companion app (which is probably even more valuable than the MX manuals for understanding how systems work.).  None of this stuff is controlled.

Any even halfway decent dev team is working off of 3d scans of real aircraft for their modeling, produced with the concurrence of an airplane owner (an airline), not the manufacturer (Boeing).  So no permissions from Boeing needed there either.  If someone wants to use a drone to scan my suburban, they don't need Chevy's permission, just mine 😉.

Unfortunately I find your last point incorrect.  There is a slew of airline pilot "influencer" types out there, seemingly disproportionately from European airlines, who absolutely do use flight deck operational footage in their videos.  The existence of these folks kind of cracks me up... Like, really, you fly for a large airline, but the pittance you make off YouTube videos is a meaningful contribution to your income?  Either European airlines need better contracts lol, or more likely some folks need a bit of an ego check.  But yeah, plenty of that video out there.  We restrict it in the US not because of company IP privacy concerns, but just because of crew distraction issues.

2 hours ago, Stearmandriver said:

Unfortunately I find your last point incorrect.  There is a slew of airline pilot "influencer" types out there, seemingly disproportionately from European airlines, who absolutely do use flight deck operational footage in their videos.  The existence of these folks kind of cracks me up... Like, really, you fly for a large airline, but the pittance you make off YouTube videos is a meaningful contribution to your income?  Either European airlines need better contracts lol, or more likely some folks need a bit of an ego check.  But yeah, plenty of that video out there.  We restrict it in the US not because of company IP privacy concerns, but just because of crew distraction issues.

Yes, interesting point about the number of European pilots with YT channels. Some channels have very slick videos with lots of operational detail. DutchPilotGirl as FO in the Boeing 737 is a good example with flight deck instruction.

9 hours ago, The Flight Level said:

Yes, interesting point about the number of European pilots with YT channels. Some channels have very slick videos with lots of operational detail. DutchPilotGirl as FO in the Boeing 737 is a good example with flight deck instruction.

Yes, the number of them that are FOs is pretty surprising too, only because I can't fathom allowing that in my flight deck as a captain.  Even if it's not an explicit policy violation in their country / at their company (and I assume it's not since it's happening), there is no way I'd allow such a distraction.  I mean, who are these captains that allow their FOs to play such a silly game??

11 hours ago, The Flight Level said:

 DutchPilotGirl as FO in the Boeing 737 is a good example with flight deck instruction.

I, along with her other 393,000 followers, are looking forward to the to swimwear flights....

21 hours ago, Stearmandriver said:

This makes it sound as if there's some classified or non-public technical information to be gotten from Boeing.  About an airliner?  There absolutely is not.  Anyone can buy a set of maintenance manuals for a 737.  Anyone can buy the 737 Cockpit Companion app (which is probably even more valuable than the MX manuals for understanding how systems work.).  None of this stuff is controlled.

 

There are many things in this world you can 'buy' and/or download, it doesn't mean that it is legal.

Here is what Google's AI  research says about anyone being able to buy Boeing's manuals:

Quote

No, not everyone can buy Boeing aircraft manuals. Boeing offers licensed access to their manuals primarily to flight training organizations (FTOs), airline training organizations (ATOs), and other entities that are using them for training and safety purposes. The manuals are considered Boeing intellectual property and are not generally available for sale to the public.
Here's a more detailed explanation:

Limited Access:
Boeing Licensed Manuals are specifically designed for training and safety applications. They are not intended for general use or resale.

Specific Customers:
The main target audience for these manuals includes FTOs, ATOs, and other entities involved in aircraft training and operations, says a Boeing Services news article.

Licensing Agreements:
Access to the manuals is typically granted through licensing agreements that outline the terms of use, including limitations on distribution and unauthorized access.

 

On 4/14/2025 at 7:38 AM, Lucky38i said:

For example the A300 from iniBuilds is officially titled as `iniBuilds A300-600R Airliner` as opposed to `Airbus A300-600R`

Yeah, and all the airbus logos are missing in the A300 and A350.

Meanwhile since Microsoft has the Airbus licence, ini's airbus aircraft in 2020/2024 do have the airbus logos.

Edited April 20, 20251 yr by Tuskin38

2 hours ago, rjquick said:

There are many things in this world you can 'buy' and/or download, it doesn't mean that it is legal.

Here is what Google's AI  research says about anyone being able to buy Boeing's manuals:

 

Ah yes, AI... The gold standard of accuracy, especially about a specialized industry that it's not been prepared to regurgitate info on.  😉

Truly, anyone can access a Boeing MX manual.  But as I said, you don't even need to, because you can just download the Cockpit Companion app, which will tell you more than the Boeing manuals will.  Entirely legally.  I'll leave you a link.  😁

https://apps.apple.com/us/app/b737-cockpit-companion/id574292473

For good measure, here's the service where anyone can purchase access to all operational manuals and data directly from Boeing.  The MX stuff has its own portal.

https://services.boeing.com/training-solutions/flight-training/licensed-manuals

These are just civilian airliners.  There's nothing classified here.

2 hours ago, Stearmandriver said:

Ah yes, AI... The gold standard of accuracy, especially about a specialized industry that it's not been prepared to regurgitate info on.  😉

Truly, anyone can access a Boeing MX manual.  But as I said, you don't even need to, because you can just download the Cockpit Companion app, which will tell you more than the Boeing manuals will.  Entirely legally.  I'll leave you a link.  😁

https://apps.apple.com/us/app/b737-cockpit-companion/id574292473

For good measure, here's the service where anyone can purchase access to all operational manuals and data directly from Boeing.  The MX stuff has its own portal.

https://services.boeing.com/training-solutions/flight-training/licensed-manuals

These are just civilian airliners.  There's nothing classified here.

Maybe you should have read the requirements to purchase before posting...  But sure, available to anyone.  🤦‍♂️

What requirements do I have to meet in order to purchase?

 

Customers that pass our internal four-part vetting process will need to execute a Hardware Material Services General Terms Agreement (HMSGTA), Supplemental License Agreement (SLA) and Technical Consulting Agreement (TCA) prior to accessing the flight training manuals. Additionally, all customers will need to have a minimum aviation liability insurance.

Edited April 20, 20251 yr by psolk

2 hours ago, Stearmandriver said:

Ah yes, AI... The gold standard of accuracy, especially about a specialized industry that it's not been prepared to regurgitate info on.  😉

Truly, anyone can access a Boeing MX manual.  But as I said, you don't even need to, because you can just download the Cockpit Companion app, which will tell you more than the Boeing manuals will.  Entirely legally.  I'll leave you a link.  😁

https://apps.apple.com/us/app/b737-cockpit-companion/id574292473

For good measure, here's the service where anyone can purchase access to all operational manuals and data directly from Boeing.  The MX stuff has its own portal.

https://services.boeing.com/training-solutions/flight-training/licensed-manuals

These are just civilian airliners.  There's nothing classified here.

Doesn't sound like a simmer can order this.

 

What requirements do I have to meet in order to purchase?

 

Customers that pass our internal four-part vetting process will need to execute a Hardware Material Services General Terms Agreement (HMSGTA), Supplemental License Agreement (SLA) and Technical Consulting Agreement (TCA) prior to accessing the flight training manuals. Additionally, all customers will need to have a minimum aviation liability insurance.

I would imagine there is probably a page on the official Boeing and/or Airbus websites where you can down the flight manuals for specific aircraft. Shouldn't be a problem. Maybe I'll check it out later.

1 hour ago, psolk said:

Maybe you should have read the requirements to purchase before posting...  But sure, available to anyone.  🤦‍♂️

What requirements do I have to meet in order to purchase?

 

Customers that pass our internal four-part vetting process will need to execute a Hardware Material Services General Terms Agreement (HMSGTA), Supplemental License Agreement (SLA) and Technical Consulting Agreement (TCA) prior to accessing the flight training manuals. Additionally, all customers will need to have a minimum aviation liability insurance.

Where did I say you wouldn't have to meet requirements?  Anyone can meet those requirements.  Sure, might cost you something.  But you see, it's not anything that restricts anyone from the info who is willing to pay.  It's not classified information... You're willing to pay for it, you can have it. 

Boeing is in the business of making money.  These are civilian, non classified products.  Of course they'll sell the products, and the documentation, to whoever wants to pay, as that site says.  Get a certificate, hold insurance, gimme your check and here's your manual.  You guys are being silly, acting like there's some special knowledge here lol.