10 hours ago, Bigmack said:

No one implied that the 2024 control mapping didn't exist, the fact that there should be a separate control to throttle engines to 100% and a separate axis for collective controls. Not combined as one. That's not realistic. But it's not modelled in 2020 or 2024, but it's come a long way since FSX days.

You can do exactly that.  If the governor is on, those two are linked.  I believe that is realistic.  Turn the governor off and you absolutely can map separate axis to those and move them independently.  

I have one of those old Saitek/Logitech 3 handle throttles.  First one is mapped to the collective, 2nd is the throttle.  

Unless you are referring ot the 225 specifically, I don't know those systems at all.  I stick to other helicopters in the sim.  

There's some really good tutorials out there on Youtube.  I'm no expert, but there's people who are.  Belatu42 is a real world heli pilot and MSFS 2024 flyer as well.  P Gatcomb has some good heli stuff as well.  

Edited July 20, 2025Jul 20 by kerosene31

11 hours ago, Soul Rebel said:

How is possible that a helicopter with a main rotor tilted forward and the cyclic centered when you apply colective moves backward?

Simple: Center of Gravity.

MANY helos (and heavy lifters in particular) lift the nosewheel completely off the ground if you do nothing other than pull collective. And once that happens, chances of backwards flight is highly likely if no other corrections are made (and I can pretty much guarantee that other corrections are constantly made by the pilots. Takeoffs and landings require more or less constant adjustments to all the controls).

Just to validate, I flew a bunch of patterns with various helo addons in both MSFS and XP last night. And i'm quite familiar with the helos in DCSW, as well. The ones in MSFS fly in a very representative manner, even compared to ones in the other sims that have historically had better helo flight dynamics. Even the Bell 407 has been significantly improved (it was so bad when it came out in v2020 that I haven't touched it in over a year).

Based on your post, I paid particular attention to the H225. While I do find that it's too sensitive in pitch (a common condition across many planes & helos in MSFS), other than that, it performs just fine. I had no issues performing either takeoffs or landings, whether running or hovering. It, like other MSFS helos, might need a bit more ground effect, but again, once you've spent some time in the bird, you know what to expect and how it should fly.

The 225 is rather nice and after a bit of adjustment to the the joystick curves/sensitivities, I wouldn't hesitate to spend time in it if a glass cockpit heavy lift experience is what I'm after.

Most of what you're complaining about indicates that you need to do more studying on how helicopters actually work, and if you love the H225 (it is a VERY nice helo!), going deeper on it and it's forebears will probably improve your perception of it a GREAT deal.

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How is possible that a helicopter flying at 120kt when you lower slightly your colective maintaining your ADI on 0 degrees, or even 1 or 2  positive degrees almost don't loose speed and you have to lover your colective a lot to loose it?, and if you don't keep your ADI at 0 degrees lowering a little your collective sudenly you have a minus VSI of 1.500ft or more?

Because, again, this is how helos work. I've never seen one where nose up isn't required in conjunction with lowering the collective, unless you are just cruising and have plenty of time for a very gradual speed loss. When coming in to an airport or helipad, tho, a noticeable flare is very common as this rotates the entire rotor disk against the airflow, creating massive amounts of drag. Which is exactly what you want when you're coming in.

Ever seen a helo circle around it's landing point if it's come in at high speed...? Guess what the pilot is doing: slowing the bird down by pulling high AoA WITH the Cyclic.

You have to work WITH the helo's dynamics, not against them 🙂

 

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How is possible that a helicopter flying at 30/40kt doing a final approach when you have to reduce your VSI increasing a little your collective sudenly have a positive VSI of 1.000 ft/min?

There's a number of ways I can envision this happening, especially with an extremely powerful helo like the H225. But I didn't run into any of that while test flying last night.

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What makes you think that?

Because you're complaining about the lack of SAS/AFCS - the "autopilot". Those are part of the avionics...

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No, I wasn't expecting to get a study level helicopter, if you fly airplanes you have plenty of them in all MSFS24 versions but if you want to get some helicopters you have to buy the Premium Deluxe so I was expecting to get a finished product with upper modes that flies like a helicopter. If you check all the airplanes that come with Premium Deluxe that should have an autopilot with upper modes...they have it and work, why not the helicopter?, can you imagine an A320 or B737 without autopilot in MSFS24 even if it is a default one?

WHAT...? The base edition of the game includes the Guimbal Cabri, Bell 407, H125, R66, and S-64. Plus some autogyros and the volocity.

Deluxe includes exactly ZERO extra helos.

Premium Deluxe adds only the 225 and Chinook.

Both the 225 and Chinook DO "fly like helicopters".

The only thing you've brought up with which I can agree is the lack of at least a basic autopilot, and that is indeed disappointing. Not sure why it hasn't been included after 9+ months... 😞

BUT, the helo remains quite flyable. Get the Force Trim Release set up and they're all quite nice.

Edited July 20, 2025Jul 20 by UrgentSiesta

2 hours ago, UrgentSiesta said:

Simple: Center of Gravity.

MANY helos (and heavy lifters in particular) lift the nosewheel completely off the ground if you do nothing other than pull collective. And once that happens, chances of backwards flight is highly likely if no other corrections are made (and I can pretty much guarantee that other corrections are constantly made by the pilots. Takeoffs and landings require more or less constant adjustments to all the controls).

 

That's basically because the main rotor is tilted forward so when you apply collective you need to move your cyclic back if you want to go off to a hover and if you do it slowly you will end with your nose up and if you have wheels and your brakes are off you will run backwards...but maybe I didn't explain it well, the problem with MSFS24 is that even without your nose up they move backwards with your cyclic centered, I am not talking about the H225 I tried all the helicopters included in MSFS24 and I have found problems with all of them.

 

2 hours ago, UrgentSiesta said:

Because, again, this is how helos work. I've never seen one where nose up isn't required in conjunction with lowering the collective, unless you are just cruising and have plenty of time for a very gradual speed loss. When coming in to an airport or helipad, tho, a noticeable flare is very common as this rotates the entire rotor disk against the airflow, creating massive amounts of drag. Which is exactly what you want when you're coming in.

I can assure you that is not how helis work, your technique works to do a quick stop but if you are flying at whatever speed and you want to reduce it you lower your collective and trim your ADI to stay at the same position that you had at the beginning of lowering the collective and your helicopter will lose the speed and won't lose altitude, you can do it with your trim or with your hand or even with only one finger. 
And of course if you are going to land and need to stop completely you can move up your nose and It will stop faster but I was talking about reducing speed in general not only to land. Try it in the H125, put it at 120kt and don't let your nose go up or down keep it at 0 degrees and reduce your collective, It keeps flying at 120kt for a while, that's completely unrealistic.

 

2 hours ago, UrgentSiesta said:

There's a number of ways I can envision this happening, especially with an extremely powerful helo like the H225. But I didn't run into any of that while test flying last night.

I tried it in several helicopters and all do the same, when you do minimal changes with the collective or you have + 1.000ft/min or -1.000ft/min, again, that's not realistic.

 

2 hours ago, UrgentSiesta said:

Because you're complaining about the lack of SAS/AFCS - the "autopilot". Those are part of the avionics...

No, I am complaining about the lack of upper modes (the H225 has SAS/ATT/AFCS) and that after 9 months they won't implement them.

 

2 hours ago, UrgentSiesta said:

Most of what you're complaining about indicates that you need to do more studying on how helicopters actually work

I am very comfortable with my knowledge about how helicopters work, thanks for your recommendation 😅

 

13 hours ago, kerosene31 said:

You can do exactly that.  If the governor is on, those two are linked.  I believe that is realistic.  Turn the governor off and you absolutely can map separate axis to those and move them independently.  

I have one of those old Saitek/Logitech 3 handle throttles.  First one is mapped to the collective, 2nd is the throttle.  

Unless you are referring ot the 225 specifically, I don't know those systems at all.  I stick to other helicopters in the sim.  

There's some really good tutorials out there on Youtube.  I'm no expert, but there's people who are.  Belatu42 is a real world heli pilot and MSFS 2024 flyer as well.  P Gatcomb has some good heli stuff as well.  

I have one lever mapped to collective and one lever mapped to throttle. The lever connected to the collective does absolutely nothing. When I spool up the throttled, then the helo lifts off the ground. That's not realistic.

3 minutes ago, Bigmack said:

I have one lever mapped to collective and one lever mapped to throttle. The lever connected to the collective does absolutely nothing. When I spool up the throttled, then the helo lifts off the ground. That's not realistic.

Which helo…?

Well, I feel embarrassed since I initially suggested the problem might be on the user side but truth is this night I tried all of the default helicopters plus my Cowan and the Nemeth Schweizer and none of it worked correctly.

I always map Collective and Throttle to different axis and even different controllers, and I assigned a governor toggle button and even separate ON / OFF governor switches but truth is I could never properly operate the throttle independently from the Collective and the throttle axis always moves the collective too 😕

How strange because I would swear it did work at some spot in time before ???

Will try to find out what's causing this, because at least the S300 is said to correctly model independent throttle and collective axis.

 

Edited July 21, 2025Jul 21 by jcomm

8 hours ago, Soul Rebel said:

That's basically because the main rotor is tilted forward so when you apply collective you need to move your cyclic back if you want to go off to a hover and if you do it slowly you will end with your nose up and if you have wheels and your brakes are off you will run backwards...but maybe I didn't explain it well, the problem with MSFS24 is that even without your nose up they move backwards with your cyclic centered, I am not talking about the H225 I tried all the helicopters included in MSFS24 and I have found problems with all of them.

 

I can assure you that is not how helis work, your technique works to do a quick stop but if you are flying at whatever speed and you want to reduce it you lower your collective and trim your ADI to stay at the same position that you had at the beginning of lowering the collective and your helicopter will lose the speed and won't lose altitude, you can do it with your trim or with your hand or even with only one finger. 
And of course if you are going to land and need to stop completely you can move up your nose and It will stop faster but I was talking about reducing speed in general not only to land. Try it in the H125, put it at 120kt and don't let your nose go up or down keep it at 0 degrees and reduce your collective, It keeps flying at 120kt for a while, that's completely unrealistic.

 

I tried it in several helicopters and all do the same, when you do minimal changes with the collective or you have + 1.000ft/min or -1.000ft/min, again, that's not realistic.

 

No, I am complaining about the lack of upper modes (the H225 has SAS/ATT/AFCS) and that after 9 months they won't implement them.

 

I am very comfortable with my knowledge about how helicopters work, thanks for your recommendation 😅

 

After researching it and flying it more today, I'm beginning to see how it's supposed to work. And frankly, It seems to be doing a lot of what it should be. For e.g., many of the 225 videos I watched today definitely show a nosewheel lift during a hover takeoff, with other dynamics similar to how the bird appears to fly in the sim.

Far more of the AFCS is working than I had originally realized, and when experimenting with the various modes, they effect changes to the helo's handling in a reasonable manner. Definitely in line with other helos with highly effective AFCS' across several sims, AFAICT...

Now, I'm not a 225 pilot, nor do I have a lot of experience with Airbus Helionix(?), so I can't say whether it's responding closely to book values, but as far as I can see, the helo flies reasonably well, including collective/cyclic changes for speed/altitude, etc.. I'm not experiencing several of the issues you claim, nor any issues that couldn't just as easily be caused by my lack of experience with the addon.

In fact, the more I'm flying it, the more i'm liking it.

In sum, if you have bona fide sources or documentation showing how a real one handles vs this one, then by all means, please do share, as the HPG documentation is sorely lacking...

 

But, the observations made by the OP and others across this thread are valid, in as far as I was able to test myself, regarding the inability to properly detach Collective operation from Throttle 😕

Unless there is something hidden on the well known to be inconsistent naming convention followed by ASOBO designers for controls and functions, and we are lost in a myriad of names for throttles / helicopter throttles, governor functions that are fuzzy in their definition and so on and so forth (typical of those who create content without having a sound conceptual model for what they're modelling ... )... It's one of the main problems with the MSFS platform - very poor and yet rather complex control settings interface...

2 hours ago, jcomm said:

But, the observations made by the OP and others across this thread are valid, in as far as I was able to test myself, regarding the inability to properly detach Collective operation from Throttle 😕

Unless there is something hidden on the well known to be inconsistent naming convention followed by ASOBO designers for controls and functions, and we are lost in a myriad of names for throttles / helicopter throttles, governor functions that are fuzzy in their definition and so on and so forth (typical of those who create content without having a sound conceptual model for what they're modelling ... )... It's one of the main problems with the MSFS platform - very poor and yet rather complex control settings interface...

After spending 10 years in the military as a "Helo and Jet flight controls Tech", I know quite well how the collective and cyclic operation should be. I don't need to watch someone on Youtube instructing on Helo operations or what's realistic. The way Asobo model helos in flight sim 20/2024 is not realistic until there are separate operation of the throttles and collective operations.

3 hours ago, Bigmack said:

After spending 10 years in the military as a "Helo and Jet flight controls Tech", I know quite well how the collective and cyclic operation should be. I don't need to watch someone on Youtube instructing on Helo operations or what's realistic. The way Asobo model helos in flight sim 20/2024 is not realistic until there are separate operation of the throttles and collective operations.

100% agree!

4 hours ago, Bigmack said:The way Asobo model helos in flight sim 20/2024 is not realistic until there are separate operation of the throttles and collective operations.

What do you mean by that ? There are two separate controls for throttle and collective ? My understanding helicopter blade won’t generate enough lift until certain rpm is achieved? I have binding for both throttle and collective on my honeycomb bravo I use them independently !

Ok ok ok !!!!

I finally got it working in FS 2024 SU3 1.5.18.0, and the trick is assigning helicopter specific functions to the throttle and collective.

In my case I am using:

1) The keyboard, for which I have created a generic keyboard profile irrespective of the type of aircraft, controlling base functionality of the sim, like views, but also setting the altimeter, etc... This is spread across all my aircraft, of any type;

2) A Saitek Combat Pro, which I use for aircraft and helis, but for helis the "Z Axis" instead of being assigned to "RUDDER" is assigned to "TAIL ROTOR AXIS";

3) The Hotas of an old, broken, X52-Pro, which I use for the throttle and collective, assigned as "SET HELICOPTER THROTTLE AXIS" and "COLLECTIVE AXIS", as well as a button assigned for toggling the Governor - "TOGGLE ENGINE GOV SWITCH";

4) A T16000 which I use for the Cyclic, using "SET CYCLIC LATERAL AXIS" and "SET CYCLIC LONGITUDINAL AXIS".

Edited July 21, 2025Jul 21 by jcomm

Okay, here is my use case experience in MSFS 2024 regarding helicopters. I fly them often in 2024, and enjoy helo flying in the sim. For my helo controls, I have a Virpil flight stick for the cyclic, and a Virpil collective base and grip for the collective. The base has an actual throttle twist grip built in.

Within the sim, I have the helo specific controls assigned to the Virpil controls. Whenever I fly a default MSFS2024 helo, the twist throttle on my Virpil collective does nothing. BUT, when I fly any of the Taog helo's (I do not have the new OH-6 yet), the twist throttle on my Virpil collective DOES work as it's supposed to. For example, on the Allouette the twist grip moves the fuel lever in the cockpit. In the Taog Huey, the Virpil twist throttle moves the twist throttle properly in the cockpit in the sim.

Besides the Taog helos, I also have the Miltech Chinook and the HPG H145 and H160. I have not tested the twist throttle controls enough in those helos yet to verify if it works properly or not. 

I am on SU2. 

2 hours ago, sd_flyer said:

What do you mean by that ? There are two separate controls for throttle and collective ? My understanding helicopter blade won’t generate enough lift until certain rpm is achieved? I have binding for both throttle and collective on my honeycomb bravo I use them independently !

That's great if you can use independent of each other. But if you spool the engines up  to 100%, Helo should not leave the ground until you apply collective input to raise the helo off the ground.

7 hours ago, Bigmack said:

After spending 10 years in the military as a "Helo and Jet flight controls Tech", I know quite well how the collective and cyclic operation should be. I don't need to watch someone on Youtube instructing on Helo operations or what's realistic. The way Asobo model helos in flight sim 20/2024 is not realistic until there are separate operation of the throttles and collective operations.

Throttle vs Collective works just fine in Taogs OH-6 & UH-1. 👍

Classic Defaults vs Payware differentiation. 
 

@jcomm