On 4/2/2026 at 2:32 PM, FPVSteve said:

Because it's a "you" problem and a child isn't responsible for controlling how an adult reacts to situations.

You're tryng to divert the blame and distract away from the actual problem by making the children and parents the victims and the adults who are bothered by the noise and unruliness the ones with a problem.  Well, that just won't fly, my friend.

Children are by nature undisciplined and unaware that their behavior is disturbing other people, so it is the adult parents' responsibility to reign in their kids and force them to behave civilly. 

Unfortunately, in my experience a lot of parents over the past 20 years or so have largely decided to forgo any discipline and just let their children act out and scream and such in public, and they should be publicly called out for allowing it.

It's high time that those of us in society who are reasoned and mature start openly calling out others for their bad behavior, as well as complaining when things aren't done right or well.  Otherwise, if everyone just stays quiet and passively accepts poor service, bad behavior, or poor quality, then the people perpetrating it will think that it's OK and may not even realize that they're doing something wrong, so things never improve.

Dave     

4 hours ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

My father was a strict disciplinarian. I can remember getting the slipper on my backside for laughing with a friend when he said something that amused us. He saw it differently.

I also had the cane across my fingers in Australia 60+ years ago along with every boy in our mixed class when we gave the music teacher a hard time. The girls got lines.

Having been punished like that I never misbehaved in class again. The caning was painful but I and my parents accepted that was school policy.

It taught me respect for authority that I still have today, 60+ years later.

Without discipline society breaks down as can be seen in the teenage mob that stole from a London store recently.

There's a difference between respecting authority and being afraid of violence from someone bigger than you.

Violence has its place but should be as a last resort, not because you're emotionally incapable of handling a class of small children making a bit of noise.

History is proving that to be the case - which is why it's completely illegal to do what you describe in schools.

I also don't think a lack of violence has necessarily caused societal behaviour to degrade - more a lack of decent parenting (which doesn't have to include violence) and of course the divorce rate and breakdown of local communities causing fractured families and social ties both of which lead to kids running feral.

Edited April 4Apr 4 by FPVSteve

21 minutes ago, dave2013 said:

You're tryng to divert the blame and distract away from the actual problem by making the children and parents the victims and the adults who are bothered by the noise and unruliness the ones with a problem.  Well, that just won't fly, my friend.

Children are by nature undisciplined and unaware that their behavior is disturbing other people, so it is the adult parents' responsibility to reign in their kids and force them to behave civilly. 

Unfortunately, in my experience a lot of parents over the past 20 years or so have largely decided to forgo any discipline and just let their children act out and scream and such in public, and they should be publicly called out for allowing it.

It's high time that those of us in society who are reasoned and mature start openly calling out others for their bad behavior, as well as complaining when things aren't done right or well.  Otherwise, if everyone just stays quiet and passively accepts poor service, bad behavior, or poor quality, then the people perpetrating it will think that it's OK and may not even realize that they're doing something wrong, so things never improve.

Dave     

20 years? I'd say that generation are a direct result of terrible parenting by the generation before them so it's a problem at least 40-50 years in the making.

1 minute ago, FPVSteve said:

There's a difference between respecting authority and being afraid of violence from someone bigger than you.

Violence has its place but should be as a last resort, not because you're emotionally incapable of handling a class of small children making a bit of noise.

There have to be repercussions when children disobey authority and misbehave beyond what is acceptable. I was around 11-12. Corporal punishment was common place in Anglo Saxon countries in the 60s. Maybe you’re too young to have experienced it.

3 minutes ago, FPVSteve said:

History is proving me right - which is why it's completely illegal to do what you describe in schools.

I disagree. A short sharp shot often delivers the right results. I went to a secondary modern school in outer London in the mid 60s and corporal punishment was still used. Pupils being expelled was virtually unknown. Society has gone to soft and we’re paying the penalty.

Heck, I remember in Junior High School getting a swat on the keister from the gym teacher for snaping another guy with my towel! 

All it took from my parents was a nasty stare that told me I'd better knock off my behaviour!

Well - I'm afraid I'll never change my stance on this, so I'll leave it there 😂

All the best 👍

On 4/2/2026 at 5:02 PM, SayAgain said:

Nope … hopefully being an Adult you’re able to distinguish between “beating” and “discipline”?  As a child in a UK boarding school we actually got whipped for not behaving … oh the horror, damaged goods and I should have been sent to therapy for years … well I didn’t and it taught me discipline that helped me achieve my goals in life … no drama, no therapy, no harm.  Oh, and we still had fun and enjoyed being a kid, hard to imagine huh?

So why did United ban loud noise from audio equipment on planes if people should just “suck it up”?  So I guess kids can crank up a radio on plane but Adults can’t?  Oh it’s a kid, he/she can do anything … sure go ahead and pull the emergency exit handle, no worries, all good.

Really, is this some global document/rule I missed out and didn’t get the memo?  Or is it just a parent being lazy and not involved with their child and not taking responsibility for THEIR kids and trying to offload said responsibility to the rest of society?  Your kid, your responsibility.

Like I said, there are solutions but for some strange reason you refuse to accept those also?  

Well you’ll probably need to sue the Hotel I stayed at recently that was “no kids” and “no pets” … oh the horror!  Well as it turns out these place are often fully booked for months or even years in advance … seems like A LOT of people don’t share your philosophy and the pampering approach to parenting nor willing to accept it’s their responsibility to “suck it up”.

 

Your parents sent you to a boarding school huh? I’m sorry they didn’t love you enough to give you the attention and time you deserved. That makes sense though considering you can’t stand kids in society. Your parents couldn’t stand you and sent you away and as a result, you don’t understand how selfish you are. 
 

I would bet a ton of money you mainly just live all for yourself don’t you? Whether you have children or adult offspring, you probably most likely make decisions in your best interest in regards to everything. 
 

Sounds like a terrible life to live.

2 hours ago, Luke said:

I have two questions for you.

1. If beatings are so effective, why not use them on girls?

2. If beatings are so effective, why limit them to people who cannot fight back? Surely their effectiveness would be enhanced in areas with larger impact, like the workplace.

Inquiring minds want to know.

Softball questions. 

But first, those questions bring to mind these thoughts:

if you categorize a ruler/cane across the fingers as a “beating”, then you’ve probably never been in a fight.

you’re unfamiliar with the reality of physical abuse

And you have little understanding of Natural History, in the sense of how mammals, especially pack animals, raise their young. 

Now, for those answers!:

1. Girls are naturally more sociable and responsive to group behavior & expectations. I.e., they tend to be better behaved in general. 

2. Children are still learning their place in the pack hierarchy, and thus are far more likely to push or break boundaries. 
I.e., “A stitch in time saves nine.”

Thus, by the time people are old enough to enter the workplace, they are overwhelmingly socialized to a degree where physicality is entirely unnecessary. IF their parents applied proper discipline during their childhood. 😉

I seem to have inadvertently locked this topic. Sorry about that. Unlocked.

23 hours ago, ahsmatt7 said:

That makes sense though considering you can’t stand kids in

Kids are fine, the lack parenting IS the problem.  Having dated two single Moms in my youth and spent years actually caring for children, educating them, showing them right from wrong … as in make an effort to teach and discipline … something these two children never got from their biological parents.  Even though the relationship didn’t workout (mom was way to lazy) I kept in touch, the children found a purpose and came out good.

But hey, if you want to make stuff about someone you don’t know, go for it … sounds like you’ve got some issues to deal with.  

On 4/4/2026 at 8:44 AM, FPVSteve said:

Well - I'm afraid I'll never change my stance on this

Not trying to, I’m trying to get airlines to implement their policy consistently and or come up with others solutions for a similar problem.  It’s how society progresses with compromises.

On 4/4/2026 at 12:24 PM, UrgentSiesta said:

if you categorize a ruler/cane across the fingers as a “beating”, then you’ve probably never been in a fight. you’re unfamiliar with the reality of physical abuse And you have little understanding of Natural History, in the sense of how mammals, especially pack animals, raise their young. 

I'm reminded of the punch line - "we already know what kind of woman you are, we're just haggling over price." At the end of the day, we're not animals, and we're just talking degrees of assault. If it would get me hauled into court to see a magistrate if I did it to an adult, it's amazing that people are comfortable doing to a child who is incapable of fighting back or defending themselves.

On 4/4/2026 at 12:24 PM, UrgentSiesta said:

Girls are naturally more sociable and responsive to group behavior & expectations. I.e., they tend to be better behaved in general. 

Doesn't matter. Even if they are less likely to step out of line, why don't they face the same punishment if it is so effective?

On 4/4/2026 at 12:24 PM, UrgentSiesta said:

Thus, by the time people are old enough to enter the workplace, they are overwhelmingly socialized to a degree where physicality is entirely unnecessary. IF their parents applied proper discipline during their childhood. 😉

I don't see why, if it's so effective as a means of corrective behavior and treating respect for authority. Why not a rap across the knuckles with the cane if one is habitually late for work or mouths off at the boss?

There's a reason we stop corporal punishment at a certain age, and it's not because people have figured out social behavior. There's plenty of inappropriate behavior by adults. We stop because they've figured it out, in the sense that they're big enough to hit back. My mother used to hit me regularly, until one day I got angry and hit her back. I guess I figured it out, because she never did it again.

To me, hitting children who are incapable to resisting or fighting back is just abuse. And as we see, there's plenty of people who are former abusers or justifiers of said abuse.

@Luke Thank you for this post.
 

26 minutes ago, Luke said:

if [girls] are less likely to step out of line, why don't they face the same punishment

As Susie Derkins said in the Calvin and Hobbes comic strip, "Because girls have more delicate heinies." 😄 

I think we've all encountered adults who could do with a good thrashing. When requests, then demands, do not correct inappropriate behavior, the military has an effective method of escalation called The Blanket Party. The offending soldier is wrapped in a blanket and the blanket gets the dust beat out of it, usually by bars of soap in socks, by his offended teammates. In basic training, a drill sergeant will even describe such a procedure without actually recommending it (which would probably be illegal) if it doesn't happen spontaneously. You can see an example of this in the movie Full Metal Jacket. It's rare, and I never saw it happen myself, but a deserving friend almost had it happen to him in the Air Force. In that case I thought it was appropriate.

Another method I heard about was if someone refused to bathe, his teammates would toss him in the shower and scrub him with the same stiff bristle brushes we used to scrub tanks. I never heard of it going that far, as the threat was enough.

Needless to say, I approve of these measures.

In the case of children, you can inspire respect, or you can inspire fear. A little respect toward the child goes a long way toward getting them to respect you, and you'll have a lot fewer problems when they become teenagers. It's not 100% perfect, but it works.

There are plenty of effective methods of punishment that don't require hitting. One modern one is taking away their electronic devices, but simply taking away their charging cords may be more effective. 🙂 Timeouts can be effective, with one minute of timeout for each year of the child's age.

Hook

On 4/5/2026 at 3:45 PM, Luke said:

I'm reminded of the punch line - "we already know what kind of woman you are, we're just haggling over price." At the end of the day, we're not animals, and we're just talking degrees of assault. If it would get me hauled into court to see a magistrate if I did it to an adult, it's amazing that people are comfortable doing to a child who is incapable of fighting back or defending themselves.

Doesn't matter. Even if they are less likely to step out of line, why don't they face the same punishment if it is so effective?

I don't see why, if it's so effective as a means of corrective behavior and treating respect for authority. Why not a rap across the knuckles with the cane if one is habitually late for work or mouths off at the boss?

There's a reason we stop corporal punishment at a certain age, and it's not because people have figured out social behavior. There's plenty of inappropriate behavior by adults. We stop because they've figured it out, in the sense that they're big enough to hit back. My mother used to hit me regularly, until one day I got angry and hit her back. I guess I figured it out, because she never did it again.

To me, hitting children who are incapable to resisting or fighting back is just abuse. And as we see, there's plenty of people who are former abusers or justifiers of said abuse.

A few problems with your position, mainly conflation and false equivalence.

And not least of which is the assertion that "we're not animals". That's pure 17th/18th century pre-Darwinian chauvinism. I'm shocked that anyone other than religious zealots hold those beliefs today.

You assume that everyone, children in particular, are reasonable and in control of themselves at all times. If this were true, we wouldn't need prisons...

Your obvious lack of familiarity with the Use of Force Continuum. And you don't even have to believe me, you can easily confirm how female criminals (children, too!!!) are treated when they fail to comply. Heck, it's even strictly applied in courtrooms - just try misbehaving there, especially in defiance to the magistrate/judge.

In a professional setting, the threat of demotion, blocking advancement, or outright termination are, generally speaking, quite adequate for controlling people. And if not, the cops come and we get to see Use of Force in person! 🙂 

We don't stop because they hit back. We stop because mature people, even young ones, are smart enough to fear future consequences that are far more life affecting than a swat on the butt.

So, you assaulted your own mother? So THAT degree of assault was justified...how? Interesting that you're such a pacifist when it comes to other people...

My dad spanked me with a belt a few times in my life (and I deserved it), and my mom used what we colloquially call a "switch" (a thin branch or cane - quite painful, but not injurious) a few times as well. And I even once got paddled in school. And yeah, I earned that, too. I think that's all i can remember for corporal "abuse". 

I'm happy to report that my own children never needed it. Just a few enforced time-outs with noses in corners and such. Early correction, constructive criticism, minimal physicality were all the keys, IMHO. But, there were a couple times when their pubescent hormones brought them up to the line, and they backed down when I helped them realize how close they were.

Oh and, by the way, I'm talking about driving age teenagers who are strong athletes and martial artists - hardly defenseless little ones.

But you know what the absolute worst abuse was...? My mom was a raging alcoholic. The things she said and the attitude she projected to me whenever she was in the bottle were FAR more traumatic and injurious than anything physical she ever did with her hands or feet. I'd GLADLY take a "beating" over THAT any day, even every day.

You've taken a binary position, and the universe just doesn't work that way. And even The Law, tho written in black and white, is rarely applied in that manner.

Thankfully, there are still people in society who are able to control themselves and apply appropriate, judicious amounts of force whenever necessary. If people like you were running things, it'd just be anarchy/totalitarianism.

Edited April 8Apr 8 by UrgentSiesta

On 4/5/2026 at 4:58 PM, LHookins said:

@Luke Thank you for this post.
 

As Susie Derkins said in the Calvin and Hobbes comic strip, "Because girls have more delicate heinies." 😄 

I think we've all encountered adults who could do with a good thrashing. When requests, then demands, do not correct inappropriate behavior, the military has an effective method of escalation called The Blanket Party. The offending soldier is wrapped in a blanket and the blanket gets the dust beat out of it, usually by bars of soap in socks, by his offended teammates. In basic training, a drill sergeant will even describe such a procedure without actually recommending it (which would probably be illegal) if it doesn't happen spontaneously. You can see an example of this in the movie Full Metal Jacket. It's rare, and I never saw it happen myself, but a deserving friend almost had it happen to him in the Air Force. In that case I thought it was appropriate.

Another method I heard about was if someone refused to bathe, his teammates would toss him in the shower and scrub him with the same stiff bristle brushes we used to scrub tanks. I never heard of it going that far, as the threat was enough.

Needless to say, I approve of these measures.

In the case of children, you can inspire respect, or you can inspire fear. A little respect toward the child goes a long way toward getting them to respect you, and you'll have a lot fewer problems when they become teenagers. It's not 100% perfect, but it works.

There are plenty of effective methods of punishment that don't require hitting. One modern one is taking away their electronic devices, but simply taking away their charging cords may be more effective. 🙂 Timeouts can be effective, with one minute of timeout for each year of the child's age.

Hook

Being a vet, the military aspect is actually a great example. 

You don’t wanna do what you’re ordered, when you’re ordered, and in the exact manner in which you’re ordered…?

Hey, NO problem! You get extra duty, and all that, wages garnished, busted in rank, and oh - they DO NOT fire you. You go to jail! And at least when I was in, Bread and Water was a real option for those in the brig.

And if you really pop off to the NCO’s or Officers…? Well, if they don’t handle you themselves, the Gunnies “know people” who’ll adjust your attitude for you. In private. 👍

Kinda nice, really - keeps everything rather orderly and quiet. 🤙

Edited April 8Apr 8 by UrgentSiesta