Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Guest darksiede

Payware makers speakout Re: MS Closes Aces

Recommended Posts

Help AVSIM continue to serve you!
Please donate today!

Well FSx still shows plenty of promise, this may give XPLANE the legup it needed, developers may shift to it to keep some income, i doubt anyone would want the sim to become an online game, i am sure they would want more realism not less, but micro$ could be shooting themselves in the foot if they dont make an anouncement soon for the above reasons.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hello everyone.The Developers would be wise to play it safe. FSX seems to be slow off the gate and it may get slower with MS's announcement. The thing to do, in my opinion, is to develop for FS9 with upward compatibility for FSX, assuming they stick with MS. TC.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To me, I would think it should be business as usual until FSXbecomes obsolete vs whatever else is available. And to me, it would seem that if anything, the add on marketshould still thrive for a good while. For one thing, there is not the dreaded specter of a whole newversion coming out, and making all the work done on a particularsim platform obsolete overnight.I've had this happen myself with a payware project I worked witha few years ago. We did a package of aircraft, and right about the time it was released, a new version came out, and basically kill sales in theirtracks. So that's one thing not to worry about for a while.I agree. I hate it that there will not be a FS11. I always wantto use the latest and greatest sim. But, in the overall scheme of things, it should be a good time todevelop 3rd party add on's right now. Heck, I remember when I started with FS4. It seemed like quitea long time before FS5 came out. That gave loads of time todevelop tools, scenery, and the capability to add more aircraft.I see the same with FSX. It can be a usable platform for a goodwhile before it's just too obsolete to put up with.In my view, *none* of the other sim brands are even closeas far as the total experience. If they were, I'd be running them.But I've seen them all, and while a decent effort, they ain'tno MSFS, and they have a boatload of code to write beforethey can pretend to be worthy successors to MSFS.But if I were to eventually break down and move to a newsim, I think I would prefer to hop on the Freeware Flightgearsim. It's a sim designed by simmers, for simmers, and I doubt they are going to be firing themselves anytime soon.But it has quite a ways to go before I would consider dumpingFSX for Flightgear. I see running FSX for a good while longer, so if I decided todevelop 3rd party stuff for it, I would feel pretty comfortable doing so. Who cares what MS is going to do. I'm not going tohold my breath waiting for them to decide they are not going back into the PC sim business.Myself, I think they are making a really stupid move myself.Did MSFS ever lose money? Not that I'm aware of. To my way of thinking, canning a profitable program like MSFSis way dumb. They are going to blow their foothold, and if theywait too long, it's not going to grow back.It will be biz as usual for me. I'll upgrade and tweak FSXmyself, and to heck with em. The only part that I don't like is I can't fix that stupid looking rain and snow.. :( The rest I can deal with..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
To me, I would think it should be business as usual until FSXbecomes obsolete vs whatever else is available. And to me, it would seem that if anything, the add on marketshould still thrive for a good while. For one thing, there is not the dreaded specter of a whole newversion coming out, and making all the work done on a particularsim platform obsolete overnight.I've had this happen myself with a payware project I worked witha few years ago. We did a package of aircraft, and right about the time it was released, a new version came out, and basically kill sales in theirtracks. So that's one thing not to worry about for a while.I agree. I hate it that there will not be a FS11. I always wantto use the latest and greatest sim. But, in the overall scheme of things, it should be a good time todevelop 3rd party add on's right now. Heck, I remember when I started with FS4. It seemed like quitea long time before FS5 came out. That gave loads of time todevelop tools, scenery, and the capability to add more aircraft.I see the same with FSX. It can be a usable platform for a goodwhile before it's just too obsolete to put up with.In my view, *none* of the other sim brands are even closeas far as the total experience. If they were, I'd be running them.But I've seen them all, and while a decent effort, they ain'tno MSFS, and they have a boatload of code to write beforethey can pretend to be worthy successors to MSFS.But if I were to eventually break down and move to a newsim, I think I would prefer to hop on the Freeware Flightgearsim. It's a sim designed by simmers, for simmers, and I doubt they are going to be firing themselves anytime soon.But it has quite a ways to go before I would consider dumpingFSX for Flightgear. I see running FSX for a good while longer, so if I decided todevelop 3rd party stuff for it, I would feel pretty comfortable doing so. Who cares what MS is going to do. I'm not going tohold my breath waiting for them to decide they are not going back into the PC sim business.Myself, I think they are making a really stupid move myself.Did MSFS ever lose money? Not that I'm aware of. To my way of thinking, canning a profitable program like MSFSis way dumb. They are going to blow their foothold, and if theywait too long, it's not going to grow back.It will be biz as usual for me. I'll upgrade and tweak FSXmyself, and to heck with em. The only part that I don't like is I can't fix that stupid looking rain and snow.. :( The rest I can deal with..
I agree with NM5K on the plan to tweak and upgrade FSX until I have something better. I also started with FS4. Mine was on Mac. I will have to re-program a small area of my brain to keep from anticipating the next release of MSFS every 2 years or so. But should I really be concerned if the next best Flight Sim to come along is not produced by MS? Well yes and no. I would hope that as I accumulate 3rd party addons to FSX that I would be able to completely port those products to the next version with minimal losses of products and money spent. This is a sour grape to bite down on right now with some payware GA planes that I cannot bring in from FS9 to FSX without losing gauges and functionality of the cockpit. This is a gambling table that I sit at every time a new version comes along. The not concerned part of me says I don't care if the most realistic or appealing flight sim is made by MS or Laminar Research or by whomever as long as it performs well simulated aerodynamics, instruments and systems functionality, and provides thorough ATC environment for the user. I have X-Plane 9.22 as well and I enjoy it in different ways than MSFS. I do wish the best for the former Aces developers and hope that we will benefit from their talents and efforts again. Good luck to all!Keith

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I read some of the "supposed" features we were to have seen in FS11 and it gave me pause... While I am still unhappy to see all of that talent cut off (most likely for good) and the lives of those people disrupted, it may be just as well that the dynasty ends with FSX. I don't take comfort in this: "We were starting to focus more on the game aspect of it than just the simulation." The dumbing down of EVERYTHING. The whole SimCity series devolved into the "create your own soap opera" that is the Sims. It's all titalation and tinsel apparently... Ugggghhhhh.... :(

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I read some of the "supposed" features we were to have seen in FS11 and it gave me pause... While I am still unhappy to see all of that talent cut off (most likely for good) and the lives of those people disrupted, it may be just as well that the dynasty ends with FSX. I don't take comfort in this: "We were starting to focus more on the game aspect of it than just the simulation." The dumbing down of EVERYTHING. The whole SimCity series devolved into the "create your own soap opera" that is the Sims. It's all titalation and tinsel apparently... Ugggghhhhh.... :(
Yup, FS is going to move towards the XBOX and online gaming. Then again, no more "new editions" to tweak. I still remember the hours I spent trying to get FS 2000 to run at acceptable frame rates.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Based on the closure of ACES and the world economy in general, I would hope to anticipate price reductions, especially for the $50+ MSFS add-ons.In general, most MSFS add-on developers don't understand what a "volume" based model looks like. Just take a look at all the commercials on TV for the $19.95 and below price points. This includes manufacturing a product. With MSFS add-ons, many are downloadable, thus you just need internet bandwidth as your only overhead and some kind of a key system for activation. They haven't figured out if you sell 100,000 items at 19.95 what kind of money that would make. Instead MSFS add-on developers want to sell 10,000 copies at $40. $1.9M Vs 400K. More copies sold at 19.95 means more expertise in general via the forums. Special volume pricing, with urgency of a sale period. I am no marketing major, but this is pretty much Marketing 101. 100,000 may be too much. But if you have a good product, maybe 100K in units sold may be obtainable. (Although I wonder if ANY add-on for any version of FS, has sold a 100,000 units at 19.95 or above????) I am willing to bet that no add-ons developers will come forward with that information.I know with MSFS add-ons you have to factor in support, but you can get really good support via forums ie the beta testers of the add-on.Online version, I am for it IF IF IF you can get solid performance (its all about FPS) and not have to invest in upgrading hardware, and wasting hour upon hour of time tinkering. "Fly and not tinker". and you can use add-ons.Just a few thoughts.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Volume sales don't really exist like that in the add-on world. In fact, the market is pretty small. While I certainly won't profess to be an expert regarding sales, in the course of many conversations with fellow developers my understanding is that if you can sell 5,000 units of a model it is a blockbuster! Most numbers tend to be well below that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Yup, FS is going to move towards the XBOX and online gaming. Then again, no more "new editions" to tweak. I still remember the hours I spent trying to get FS 2000 to run at acceptable frame rates.
Everyone read the posts near the bottom, and you're feelings toward flight sim will definitely change. I promise!Link to Thread:http://forums1.avsim.net/index.php?s=&...t&p=1537935

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Volume sales don't really exist like that in the add-on world. In fact, the market is pretty small. While I certainly won't profess to be an expert regarding sales, in the course of many conversations with fellow developers my understanding is that if you can sell 5,000 units of a model it is a blockbuster! Most numbers tend to be well below that.
So you are saying, on average there are only 5000 people world wide that are interested in obtaining a more realistic simulation aspect of MSFS? Most of the MSFS add-ons deal with realism and imersification (word from Former US Pres George W. Bush here), which a lot of the general discussion on the this forum is about. Wow if that is correct, that is amazing! But a product like ActiveSkyX or Advanced, based on what it does, a truely well written sofisticated application only sells 5000 units? I would find that hard to believe. But there is no official reporting mechanism for these numbers by MSFS add-on developers. Even a total global MSFS add-on revenue number? For a small team of developers (2) that would be 100K per developer, based on 5000 units sold. That doesn't include website for sales and distribution. I also think that the fact that the lack of overhead of manufacturing on the download only add-ons, causes no urgency to eliminate inventory by cutting prices. If you actually spent $20K to manufacture 5000 units, you might be inclined to reduce pricing to liquidate inventory. The FS Community will never know. Interesting business model. I just wish we had actual numbers from the base sale of MSFS and add-on developers would report sales. I understand why they don't. They don't need to???Thanks!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Volume sales don't really exist like that in the add-on world. In fact, the market is pretty small. While I certainly won't profess to be an expert regarding sales, in the course of many conversations with fellow developers my understanding is that if you can sell 5,000 units of a model it is a blockbuster! Most numbers tend to be well below that.
Yeah, but is it the price that is holding them back from selling more? I know there are a few add-ons I'd pick up in a heartbeat if they were $15-20 instead of $40-50. That's just the simple truth. The only reason why I bought the Reality XP GNS430 is because it amounts to less than half an hour rental for any of the 430 equipped airplanes I fly. So there is some practical educational value there. Scenery and aircraft add-ons are just nice to have eye candy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
So you are saying, on average there are only 5000 people world wide that are interested in obtaining a more realistic simulation aspect of MSFS? Most of the MSFS add-ons deal with realism and imersification (word from Former US Pres George W. Bush here), which a lot of the general discussion on the this forum is about. Wow if that is correct, that is amazing! But a product like ActiveSkyX or Advanced, based on what it does, a truely well written sofisticated application only sells 5000 units? I would find that hard to believe. But there is no official reporting mechanism for these numbers by MSFS add-on developers. Even a total global MSFS add-on revenue number? For a small team of developers (2) that would be 100K per developer, based on 5000 units sold. That doesn't include website for sales and distribution. I also think that the fact that the lack of overhead of manufacturing on the download only add-ons, causes no urgency to eliminate inventory by cutting prices. If you actually spent $20K to manufacture 5000 units, you might be inclined to reduce pricing to liquidate inventory. The FS Community will never know. Interesting business model. I just wish we had actual numbers from the base sale of MSFS and add-on developers would report sales. I understand why they don't. They don't need to???Thanks!
I'm saying that for a given model...not many people buy every plane that is sold. Frankly, I do think that the add-on buyers are a relatively small percentage of the total number of people that buy the program. Nobody I know is getting rich doing this. I would never consider doing it full-time :(

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
In general, most MSFS add-on developers don't understand what a "volume" based model looks like. Just take a look at all the commercials on TV for the $19.95 and below price points. This includes manufacturing a product. With MSFS add-ons, many are downloadable, thus you just need internet bandwidth as your only overhead and some kind of a key system for activation. They haven't figured out if you sell 100,000 items at 19.95 what kind of money that would make. Instead MSFS add-on developers want to sell 10,000 copies at $40. $1.9M Vs 400K. More copies sold at 19.95 means more expertise in general via the forums. Special volume pricing, with urgency of a sale period. I am no marketing major, but this is pretty much Marketing
Take a look in the file Library the most popular aircraft is the Fokker F50 with 57000+ downloads and that is freeware Take into account how many times the same person has reloaded that aircraft Do you honestly think that Level D or PMDG has sold that many units People like us who spend our hard earned on addons are in a minority , and even we make choices about what we purchace IF there is an add on developer out there that can and does make a full time living from our hobby/obsession , then they have my upmost respect (and my money probably :( )Mark

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites