Interesting points you have made there Geof.For my part, as someone who has been dabbling in flight sims since the late 1980s and someone who has really gotten into the hobby over the last ten years or so I think the problem is a slightly different one.I am sure there is an element within the community who display a lack of manners and etiquette. Unfortunately they are quite a vocal minority due to the nature of their affliction. However, we find people like this in every community and group of people.Go back ten years and there were very few payware addons available, certainly nothing like the sheer numbers we have today. The community was still very much driven by enthusiasts and most forums were pretty friendly places. There was very little in the way of controversy or ill-tempered messages. Fast forward ten years and we are literally swamped by commercial developers pushing their wares on us. I think the relationship between the users and developers changed fundamentally when the latter turned their hobby into a business venture. There's a world of difference between an enthusiastic developer sharing his latest creation with the community, and a company selling their latest product via a snazzy website.In short, our hobby has become commercialised.I'm sure we are all familiar with various companies that have been the focus of controversy or heated debate over the years. It's true that a lot of customers have been left burned by poor products, poor support, and lack of any recourse with many of these companies. One of the developers above noted that the kind of behaviour shown by customers would not be tolerated in a "brick and mortar" business establishment. In such an establishment my consumer rights are protected by the retail laws of my country and I have plenty of recourse should I feel unsatisfied with the product I purchase. A great many developers sell their wares internationally via the Internet with total impunity - they know that due to the nature of the transaction their customers have little or no recourse.Likewise the attitudes displayed by many developers to their customers has left a bad taste in my mouth. It seems that more than a few developers have acquired something of an overgrown ego, and think that we, the great unwashed masses should eagerly lap up anything they throw to us and then shower them with praise and adulation. They think we should hand over our credit card number and just be grateful that we are graced to share the same planet as their hallowed greatnesses. I've lost count of how many critical threads I have seen locked on developers forums, and even the forums here on Avsim. I have seen customers post legitimate criticisms, only to be met by the developers and their army of sycophants in tow bullying and humiliating the original poster until the thread is inevitably locked.So, in conclusion:Whilst I agree that there is no excuse for software piracy, if this hobby is in decline then the developers should bear just as much of the blame as the customers/users. The rampant commercialisation of the hobby, over blown developer egoes, bad attitudes and lack of professionalism shown by many developers has contributed just as much to any decline as the pirates.

Interesting points you have made there Geof.For my part, as someone who has been dabbling in flight sims since the late 1980s and someone who has really gotten into the hobby over the last ten years or so I think the problem is a slightly different one.I am sure there is an element within the community who display a lack of manners and etiquette. Unfortunately they are quite a vocal minority due to the nature of their affliction. However, we find people like this in every community and group of people.Go back ten years and there were very few payware addons available, certainly nothing like the sheer numbers we have today. The community was still very much driven by enthusiasts and most forums were pretty friendly places. There was very little in the way of controversy or ill-tempered messages. Fast forward ten years and we are literally swamped by commercial developers pushing their wares on us. I think the relationship between the users and developers changed fundamentally when the latter turned their hobby into a business venture. There's a world of difference between an enthusiastic developer sharing his latest creation with the community, and a company selling their latest product via a snazzy website.In short, our hobby has become commercialised.I'm sure we are all familiar with various companies that have been the focus of controversy or heated debate over the years. It's true that a lot of customers have been left burned by poor products, poor support, and lack of any recourse with many of these companies. One of the developers above noted that the kind of behaviour shown by customers would not be tolerated in a "brick and mortar" business establishment. In such an establishment my consumer rights are protected by the retail laws of my country and I have plenty of recourse should I feel unsatisfied with the product I purchase. A great many developers sell their wares internationally via the Internet with total impunity - they know that due to the nature of the transaction their customers have little or no recourse.Likewise the attitudes displayed by many developers to their customers has left a bad taste in my mouth. It seems that more than a few developers have acquired something of an overgrown ego, and think that we, the great unwashed masses should eagerly lap up anything they throw to us and then shower them with praise and adulation. They think we should hand over our credit card number and just be grateful that we are graced to share the same planet as their hallowed greatnesses. I've lost count of how many critical threads I have seen locked on developers forums, and even the forums here on Avsim. I have seen customers post legitimate criticisms, only to be met by the developers and their army of sycophants in tow bullying and humiliating the original poster until the thread is inevitably locked.So, in conclusion:Whilst I agree that there is no excuse for software piracy, if this hobby is in decline then the developers should bear just as much of the blame as the customers/users. The rampant commercialisation of the hobby, over blown developer egoes, bad attitudes and lack of professionalism shown by many developers has contributed just as much to any decline as the pirates.

Thank you sir for stating facts that my words could not convey. You defined what I meant by "abuse".

I think the relationship between the users and developers changed fundamentally when the latter turned their hobby into a business venture.

I believe most Flight Sim developers weren't prepared for what comes with the territory once they decided to sell a product.Todd

Peter, no developer in his right mind wishes to inconvenience his customer base...That is why I've repeatedly stated that Legitimate Users would not be effected by a schema which simply renders products unusable in the event of a hack attempt since Legitmate Users do not attempt to hack their own software. :(

Sorry Ron, read the whole thread over again. I have missed parts of it, and what you suggest seems to be a step in the direction. I'm not that active on the forum and it soemtimes slips who posted what. My first post wasn't aimed at you, but developers ingeneral, it just happened to end up after your post. When I answered you I hadn't read up on what you had previously posted in the thread. Lesson to be learned for me, is read and check again, before posting and don't shoot from memory. :(

Here's what doesn't "come with the territory":1 - Purchase does not include the right to be insulting to a developer, ever.2 - Purchase does not include the right to cry foul because you want developer A's aircraft to work with developer B's addon.3 - Purchase does not include the right to demand changes to an addon, your purchase didn't buy the company just a use license.4 - Purchase does not include the right to make claims regarding an addon based on personal opinion to the extent it becomes misrepresentative of the actual product itself and thus damages public perceptions of the product.5 - Purchase does not include the right to make false accusations or claims regarding a developer.6 - Purchase does not include the right to throw a fit when a developer doesn't kowtow to your claims of all-knowingness regarding a product's features/abilities/etc.7 - Purchase does not include the right to call a developer a liar because they state you're the only customer who's reported the problem you're having.8 - Purchase does not include the right to drag a developer through the mud of public opinion when your opinion of something being modeled wrong is not accepted by the developer.9 - Purchase does not include the right to claim the developer sold you junk simply because it didn't include a feature that exceeds the actual asking price of the product.10 - Purchase does not include the right to claim the product is broken when in fact the problem being experienced lies in the user's failure to read and understand the documentation.11 - Nothing gives you the right to attack a developer regarding product pricing. You don't have to like the price, but you don't have to purchase it either. The price is not your decision, nor do you know how much went into making the product.I could continue the list even more... but the bottom line is this: The axiom "the customer is always right", contains no honesty nor integrity. It is used by some as a weapon to wield against a developer for personal gain that goes above and beyond reason and common sense.I have already personally experienced most of those, as well as other behaviors from customers. I'm already considering not doing another FS addon. Why? Because there isn't enough financial wealth on the planet that compensates for a great deal of the absurd, childish behavior I've seen come from customers.Now... as in anything else... these customers are not a majority... at least not yet. The quantity appears to be increasing if all the developer forums I peruse are any indication.I've seen a lot of posts discussing developers at AVSIM get locked because of the tone of the posts. They get personal and insulting towards the developer(s). No one has the right to behave that way. No one has the right to make misleading statements regarding a developer, yet I see it happen all too often. I've seen people jump into a thread and post something negative just because they personally hate the developer in question and have a personal agenda to do anything and everything they can to mar the developer's public image.

Hello,Well ... so .. what stay as right to the customer .. after this list ? :)Must be a tiny right.That's the general definition of software market who cause problem .. as in fact .. it's buying a "license" and not a product.The software market is the one where consumers is the less protected.Regards.Gus.

EngineRoom In my memory it started a little over five years ago. By 2004 anybody could have seen that the sour winds of changes against freeware were coming.You left out the episode of Phil Taylor. Unbelievable.The rest, I couldn

Here's what doesn't "come with the territory":1 - Purchase does not include the right to be insulting to a developer, ever.2 - Purchase does not include the right to cry foul because you want developer A's aircraft to work with developer B's addon.3 - Purchase does not include the right to demand changes to an addon, your purchase didn't buy the company just a use license.4 - Purchase does not include the right to make claims regarding an addon based on personal opinion to the extent it becomes misrepresentative of the actual product itself and thus damages public perceptions of the product.5 - Purchase does not include the right to make false accusations or claims regarding a developer.6 - Purchase does not include the right to throw a fit when a developer doesn't kowtow to your claims of all-knowingness regarding a product's features/abilities/etc.7 - Purchase does not include the right to call a developer a liar because they state you're the only customer who's reported the problem you're having.8 - Purchase does not include the right to drag a developer through the mud of public opinion when your opinion of something being modeled wrong is not accepted by the developer.9 - Purchase does not include the right to claim the developer sold you junk simply because it didn't include a feature that exceeds the actual asking price of the product.10 - Purchase does not include the right to claim the product is broken when in fact the problem being experienced lies in the user's failure to read and understand the documentation.11 - Nothing gives you the right to attack a developer regarding product pricing. You don't have to like the price, but you don't have to purchase it either. The price is not your decision, nor do you know how much went into making the product.I could continue the list even more... but the bottom line is this: The axiom "the customer is always right", contains no honesty nor integrity. It is used by some as a weapon to wield against a developer for personal gain that goes above and beyond reason and common sense.I have already personally experienced most of those, as well as other behaviors from customers. I'm already considering not doing another FS addon. Why? Because there isn't enough financial wealth on the planet that compensates for a great deal of the absurd, childish behavior I've seen come from customers.Now... as in anything else... these customers are not a majority... at least not yet. The quantity appears to be increasing if all the developer forums I peruse are any indication.I've seen a lot of posts discussing developers at AVSIM get locked because of the tone of the posts. They get personal and insulting towards the developer(s). No one has the right to behave that way. No one has the right to make misleading statements regarding a developer, yet I see it happen all too often. I've seen people jump into a thread and post something negative just because they personally hate the developer in question and have a personal agenda to do anything and everything they can to mar the developer's public image.

No that is exactly what comes with the territory whether you choose to accept it or not. To state that I do not have the "right" to complain, whatever the reasons may be, now that's ludicrous! What you are saying is as a developer you are constantly abused yet your statements tend to lean towards abusing me as a customer because what you just stated there is NO WAY that a customer could ever be right! Go back re-read post #179 where I said "The customer is NOT always right BUT the customer NEVER forgets a bad experience."Todd

There has always existed an adversarial relationship between any commercial establishment and its customer base. That adversarial bent by customers is reflected in the formation of "consumer rights groups" as well as those who advocate theft as a means of "punishment" for everything from disagreements on price to perceived product value.You are correct when you state that these individuals do not speak for the majority in the marketplace and that they are vocal minority.The fact that we or other vendors have addressed those who clearly have an agenda in a no holds barred public manner should not be considered abuse but rather as a self defense mechanism.I've no qualms about banning anyone from our support forums if they bring a personal agenda there. They exist for product support, not agitators agendas.Our attitude is simply those folks should not think that we are willing to standby while those with agendas post untruths or semi untruths about us or our products.The thread is about anti piracy measures and includes the current state of the community. We've attempted to address both in a reasonable manner.It is up to the community to fix its own attitudes and developers to fix their own attitudes. :( Todd, you are correct. Customers never forget a bad experience.What makes you think that Developers forget bad experiences from users?The answer is that we do not. I've considered banning certain individuals from future purchase based on their behaviour toward us.Let's not be naive. Developers are done with these attitudes from so called "customers" who have personal agendas as well as theft. :(

No that is exactly what comes with the territory whether you choose to accept it or not. To state that I do not have the "right" to complain, whatever the reasons may be, now that's ludicrous! What you are saying is as a developer you are constantly abused yet your statements tend to lean towards abusing me as a customer because what you just stated there is NO WAY that a customer could ever be right! Go back re-read post #179 where I said "The customer is NOT always right BUT the customer NEVER forgets a bad experience."Todd

And therein lies the crux of the problem. You embrace all the behaviors I've listed as good, appropriate and a right.Also, re-read my post... I didn't state you don't have the right to complain. In fact, I gave very specific items that you don't have a right to do... most of which a civilized person would recognize as inappropriate behavior.

It is up to the community to fix its own attitudes and developers to fix their own attitudes. :(

Thanks Ron that is exactly what I was trying to say.I have spent a considerable amount of money on addons of all types over the years and have quite a large collection. Some were excellent, some were so-so, some were truly milestone pieces of work, and some were overrated and didn't warrant the selling price. I've only ever had a handful of issues with addons, and most of the time the support was good. I've gotten to the point now where I know what to expect from most developers, so I have a pretty good idea of whether or not I want to hand over my credit card number to get hold of the latest and greatest release.What turns me off a lot of developers is the way they behave in both their own and other forums, i.e. downright arrogant and condescending towards their customers. Having said that, I have seen a lot of users acting like spoilt brats who will shout and stamp their feet if they don't get their own way.Unfortunately it's a product of the commercialisation process that we have seen taking place over the years.Nick

There seems to be a misunderstanding about commercial FS Development and its business practices.While I cannot speak for others I can speak to ours.First, it is a simple retail business model and as such contains the following attributes if you will.A. Licensed Usable Product offer for sale at a fixed price by VendorB. Acceptance of the Licensed Usable Product offer for sale at a fixed price by Customer.C. Offer and Acceptance requires certain duties to be performed by both parties.D. Full Product Support is paramount in our business model for example.E. A 30 Day Refund policy is in place for those who are not satisfied for any reason.At no time does the outline I've provided allow for customer or non customer abuse or theft nor does it allow vendors to abuse customers.The attitudes shown by some seems to show an unhealthy bent toward bashing of products, product support, or personal attacks on Vendors.Add that to the roughly (previousy posted guessimate) of 45% loss due to theft and one can easily see why commercial developers have begun to be proactive on these fronts. :(

From what I'm reading here, it seems a little problem is forgotten to be spoken of:The level of price of the product and the real margin deriving from it to the seller which tends to be always said too low!!I can't speak for the USA as I have not studied US companies for a long time now.I'm a former Financial Analyst in France. There has been and still is something I find utterly shocking in my country: the huge rebate applied to any merchandise during the Sales period and now even out of this sales' time. It averages the 50% and even more at times. All year round there are price promotions which are sales disguised under an other name to overcome the french law which sets sales during two periods of the year in early january and late june.The french law also states that you cannot sell at loss.So on a strict arithmethical viewpoint that means that even by making a rebate of 50% the guy gets a positive profit margin.If you apply this to the specific market of videos games and FS in particular one should be conscious that the only way to have a good defense against piracy is first not to overprice one's goods.I remember my stunned reaction the first time I was taken aware of this.It was at a french very well known Brewing company. During the visit of the Plant we were told that the price of a bottle of beer from the company at its departure from it, was at 0.27 USD . When you go in a bar in Paris the same beer will cost you (tip not included and not mandatory in france) about 3.2 USD which means in simple arithmetics that the different distributors are multiplying by nearly 12 times the original production price. Don"t tell that this is only the results of the differents costs of distribution etc involved between the producer and the customer. That does not make sense for the simple reason that there is scale economy due to the quantity you produce and sell as obviously you do not send bottles one by one to the bartender to sell them!I've made in my PHD paper a thorough study of the problem and the average GROSS MARGIN of french companies on a ten years historic is in excess of 50 to 60% of their sales. This is exaggerate.If this happens in video games and their addons dont be surprised that some people with no morals and ethics whatsoever, will try to get illegaly a super profit too. Lower your price at a reasonnable level and you'll see that a huge part of the piracy sector will tumble down. The remnant being done by guys for whom to pirate is more a psychological desease to find a way of having a stature in an empty life!!Claude

Hello,

If this happens in video games and their addons dont be surprised that some people with no morals and ethics whatsoever, will try to get illegaly a super profit too. Lower your price at a reasonnable level and you'll see that a huge part of the piracy sector will tumble down. The remnant being done by guys for whom to pirate is more a psychological desease to find a way of having a stature in an empty life!!

I understand very well your point of view and explainations .. it's good sens.The problem is you don't know actually the profit margin for the addon's.Maybe this level is already low or very low ... so how they can reduce more the selling price ?Only devellopers can tell.Regards.Gus.

If this happens in video games and their addons dont be surprised that some people with no morals and ethics whatsoever, will try to get illegaly a super profit too. Lower your price at a reasonnable level and you'll see that a huge part of the piracy sector will tumble down. The remnant being done by guys for whom to pirate is more a psychological desease to find a way of having a stature in an empty life!!

Unfortunately there isn't huge margin being inflated to define most addon prices. Notice I said most, not all. :(Everyone seems to think what they believe is a 'reasonable level' for pricing. Oddly enough, for most it has little to do with what is actually being purchased and far more to do with not wanting to actually have to pay for something.

To answer both remarks above , one could have a rather good image of margins if accounts were made public. If I remember well in the States as well as in Canada and in a peculiar way in Switzerland and Germany you have a difference of publication of cie accounts whether they are public or private cies. If a company is listed on the stockmarket the accounts are clearly at the disposal of any citizen who makes the demand to the regulations authorities. If not either you are a stockholder or not and that's it. In France, which I took for example, It is an obligation to have balance sheets and income statements published and deposited to a special court administration. The accounts have to be published in specific newspapers dedicated to this purpose. So anyone stockholder or not can have a copy and of course , we financial analysts get them. From then on with a good practice and knowledge of the accounting system and also of the "legal tricks" applied to them by the cies , we're able to compute those margins with not too much degree of error.lol!As for the listed cies in the US , the accounting system is sufficiently reliable to enable also such computing especially because you have a system based on an economic viewpoint of accounting instead of the fiscal one which is applied in the French accounting methods. The main problem with those addons developpers is to get the accounts! most of them are not listed as far as I know!And as far as the level of margin being huge or not, the tendancy of human being is to be "gourmand"! I do not want to use the word greedy which has a real negative co-notation. We like sweets and cakes, but we forget that by eating too much of them we get ill and nauseous and it's the same with companies so that the perverse effect is the bacteria called "piracy" and its consequences on the health of companies! So beware of asking too much and not trying to find inside the cie, the possible costs reductions which can create extra margins!A good example of this in France is the customer credit: most cies have customers bills unpaid for 3 months. If you have a State cie as a customer this can go as far as 6 or 12 months! To finance that gap in your cash account, the company is obliged to borrow on the short term at a huge cost.....To prevent that which often is due to careless vendors of the company some french companies have decided to compute the end of year bonuses of their vendors by taking into account the number of days of credit alloted to the customers by the vendor( when I use the term vendor, I mean salesman). The longest the credit, the lowest the bonus! I can tell you the guys think it twice before according a long credit to their customers and become very careful about having no unpaid bills in their portfolios! :( Sorry for this rather long financial sideline not exactly in the line with the topic....ClaudeClaude