Ryan,Now that's very interesting. Really. I also make some of my money on intellectual property people copy illegally. So I am more than a bit interested in this question. Do you have any idea why it is so? So many stolen copies for FS9 and so few for FSX. Isn't it connected with the fact that there are still more FS9 users than FSX ones? I'm really willing to hear any rational theory, especially by a professional developer like you.Another reason I care is that I'm an FS9er myself. So words like yours, though true, make me feel embarrassed at least.

I have a theory.It might suggest that the interest level in FS9 add-ons are higher than the sales make it appear. Because sales wise one reallyhas to make a choice between the FS9 or the FSX version (or some sort of Combopack).Paying for both versions is not palatable and it just makes more economic sense to buy the one version you see youself likely usingfor a longer period of time, that being the FSX version.IOW the desire to have the FS9 version is there, but not the desire to pay the price of having both FS9/FSX versions.Regards.Ernie.

I have a theory.It might suggest that the interest level in FS9 add-ons are higher than the sales make it appear. Because sales wise one reallyhas to make a choice between the FS9 or the FSX version (or some sort of Combopack).Paying for both versions is not palatable and it just makes more economic sense to buy the one version you see youself likely usingfor a longer period of time, that being the FSX version.IOW the desire to have the FS9 version is there, but not the desire to pay the price of having both FS9/FSX versions.Regards.Ernie.

So just my .02 here. I also posted in the "why so few FS9 purchases lately thread" For me it has nothing to do with not being able to afford a new system or not wanting to spend the money for an I7 box. To the contrary since FSX's release I would say I spend more of my money elsewhere outside the realm of FS. I am quite content with my FS9 setup. I am also quite content with my PC. It crushes anything I throw at it. To this day my system amazes me and anyone else who happens to see it. So with that being said, why would I rush out to spend all this money on something new when I already have something I am happy with? Usually it is because of that one thing that something new has I can not live without... I never got that feeling in my gut with FSX or any of it's exclusive add-ons to date. To the contrary, now that I am just flying FS9 rather than always looking for new add-ons I spend more money on other things. IE. I bought a scooter that costs as much as some cars, bought a massage chair worth thousands, got a new all wheel drive Acura that cost a pretty penny too... Oh yeah, also took 3 or 4 first class trips to Europe and Asia since FSX was released... The point of all of this is not that I am boasting about what I am doing or have done, I am saying I have the money to spend on FSX and don't want to it is that simple...When I have something I am content with I would rather spend my money elsewhere on things I did not traditionally spend on prior and just enjoy what I have with FS9... It is also not about the whole FS9 users don't want the latest and greatest... I am quite the opposite. probably the first to get almost everything to a fault lol... With all of this being said I guess the best way for me to describe it is this:When I see something I really want it consumes me, I think about it obsessively and I am such an impulsive shopper who must always have the latest and greatest. I physically get a pain in my stomach until I have it in my hands. This leads to overpaying, exorbitant overnight shipping fees but a very happy Paul at the end of the day :)FSX just never caused that yearning or desire for me. Period. End of story. Will there be one day when PMDG releases a 777 for FSX that leaves me with no choice but to make the switch. Absolutely. But for me to date neither FSX nor any of its exclusive Add-ons have taken me to that point of no return where my bank will call to make sure all my charges are valid :). I wonder how many others fall into the same category where it has nothing to do with us, or our finances, or our spending patterns but has everything to do with not yet seeing that one thing that makes FSX SO AMAZING we can not stay away... For me, I have not seen that yet when I weigh it against everything I have already.Just some food for thought... I also strongly dislike everyone lumping FS9 users into a single bunch of poor financially challenged users who just can't afford to upgrade or are technology laggards. (Not intended at anyone specifically it is just rampant in the forums, you don't FSX so you can't afford it) To the contrary, I put myself into the extreme far right upper quadrant of visionaries and executors and have never been a laggard about anything in my life OTHER than FSX. So does that say something about me or the perceived value of FSX over FS9?-PaulRyan, I love you man, build the 777 and all these discussions will be over ;)

Let me echo Paul in saying that I'm not a software pirate, I can afford to buy a cutting-edge computer if it's justified, and I've spent hundreds of dollars on add-ons for FS9 in the last few months. I haven't purchased FSX yet because I mainly fly into busy add-on airports with complex airliners, I prefer 2D panels with sideviews in my airliners, and FS9 with all the graphical improvements available looks so good in most situations that FSX starts to look to me like an answer in search of a question. If I mainly flew GA aircraft into smaller airports, I'd probably feel differently. So, I believe that developers should consider developing new content for both platforms for the next few years, at least as far as airliners and scenery are concerned; there is likely a market for it.

I'm also with Paul on this one. I can easily afford any extreme system and add-ons. I just haven't seen the collection of add-ons for FSX that makes me want to take on FSX. There's nothing that's so "gotta have it" with FSX that I couldn't live without FS9.I was really excited when FSX was in development because going all the way back to FS1, I have always looked forward to upgrading when the next version came out. Each successive version's improvements made the previous version immediately obsolete. Yet, when FSX launched and I made a comparison of what I would get versus what I already had, there was nothing that made me think I had to have it. Not that it wasn't an easy decision, because I was almost "conditioned" to upgrade to the next version. It was almost like a law of nature, that the previous version would fade immediately if one didn't upgrade. However, there are many others that made the same comparison and for the first time in the history of the franchise, the previous version is still breathing years after it was replaced.Will I move to FSX? Certainly! However, there needs to be the motivation to do so in manner that makes the move worth leaving everything else behind. New products that only work with FSX are not the incentive so far. To be honest, dual development isn't helping the migration and neither is the slow rate of products introduced for FSX! It's going to be the collective parts working together that makes me one day say, FSX is much better than what I currently have.We can have these academic threads about what products should be developed for which platform and who will buy them, but for me, it's the big picture that matters and it's not just one select product that will make the difference.Interestingly, I don't think anyone would have predicted that a single version of the franchise would be so successful, that it would create such drama in the community, and be such a difficult act to follow.Bruce

So you believe the "silent majority" of FS9 users are pirates? Because you counted more torrent downloads than FS9 customers? Wow, I can see how it would be hard to develop for FS9 if you think that way.

They're not the only developer who sees this. When pirate downloads exceed sales by over 1000%... it's extremely telling.

They're not the only developer who sees this. When pirate downloads exceed sales by over 1000%... it's extremely telling.

As a matter of curiousity, how do you determine the actual number of downloads of a specific product from a site such as ThePirateBay?

As a matter of curiousity, how do you determine the actual number of downloads of a specific product from a site such as ThePirateBay?

Ummm, that would be none of your business. Information of this sort is on a "need to know" basis.It's not our job to satisfy your curiosity. :(

As a matter of curiousity, how do you determine the actual number of downloads of a specific product from a site such as ThePirateBay?

That's a question I won't be answering... teaching someone more details of pirated software access... um, nope! :(

Ummm, that would be none of your business. Information of this sort is on a "need to know" basis.It's not our job to satisfy your curiosity. :(

Now this is what I'm talking about, you can't blame lack of sales on FS9 when you respond to people like this (for various reasons not just issue like I explained before). Sometimes people Pirate out of spite for a said developer let alone the concept of stealing for the sake of stealing... Ryan of PMDG comes in here and makes the assertion that FS9 add-ons is pirated more than FSX add-ons and an honest question is raised only to meet this kind of reaction. I can understand the point Ed made about not giving anymore ammo to pirates but let's be honest here, keeping track of how many products is being stolen is not of interest to the offenders. The Offenders just don't want to be caught and/or traced. Anonymous numbers are just numbers... Anyway all statements have to be backed up with facts or it just sounds like an excuse to justify an action. If you can't give actual proof the appearance of the problem seems more like smoke and mirrors. If one challenges you on backing up you statements with fact's and you say, "That's none of your business" that looks bad and not credible. I don't care how outstanding a developers products is, to expect people to just take your word FS9's add-ons is pirated more than FSX (or any other platforms) can't be taken seriously. As someone who has worked with a few developers over the years I know this is a problem and it's not just isolated to just FS9 products. If it weren't for that experience with answers like this from Ron I'd have a hard time believing the legitimacy of FS9 pirating over FSX... There's alway a good way to put things especially here. People in these forums are asking not to be spiteful and kindly telling someone "we can't reveal how we collect the data as it can harm our efforts more than help" is a better way to put things. Again like I said before, tracking who is actually stealing the software versus quantity is the best course of action. Shutting down FS9 development only helps for the short term and when FSX becomes the only sim we all use this will be a greater problem. FS9 allows that cushen to really nail down how to monitor and track illegal use of software from those that have it on their machines. If we don't get a handle on this now it will hurt this community tremendously down the road. Another thing to remember is you have those among us that buy the software and give it to others so the inflated perception that someone stole from PMDG like stealing a car off a lot is false. You guys just lost business because someone gave their copy away... That's pretty much how a copy of the product get's out there for others to use. Someone is giving this stuff away with their serial numbers. If you assign a specific serial number to every downloaded product you can track who let their copy get compromised by the serial number/account/computer it was installed on. From there you can see if this user has done this with multiple products as all the communities developers are working together on the same page. Then you can press charges against these people. What's funny is it takes only one person to do this and thanks to the internet it goes viral... I wouldn't be surprised if it's only a few people that are the true culprits causing all this grief... Right now with the split market this is a gold mine of opportunity and if FS9 products are more at risk put more sniffing utilities in those products. Every product has a specific serial number tied to a user. It's a cop out to lash out at people here in the forums and/or punish half the community when you can seize an opportunity here and exploit it...

I know the percentage of product sales versus pirate downloads for our Citation X 2.0 in both FS9 and FSX.I'm more than willing to share those numbers... just as soon as you post all your personal banking information in a post in this thread. Seriously. It is improper and unrealistic to demand any business provide you with detailed sales data, in private or public.No, I won't tell you how to go look up torrent statistics on pirated files. If you demand I show you how to do something wrong (locate pirated software) to prove something illegal is happening... you're being ridiculous.

I know the percentage of product sales versus pirate downloads for our Citation X 2.0 in both FS9 and FSX.I'm more than willing to share those numbers... just as soon as you post all your personal banking information in a post in this thread. Seriously. It is improper and unrealistic to demand any business provide you with detailed sales data, in private or public.No, I won't tell you how to go look up torrent statistics on pirated files. If you demand I show you how to do something wrong (locate pirated software) to prove something illegal is happening... you're being ridiculous.

How is someone asking you how you know how many people downloaded a torrent in any way related to your banking information?I don't really know how torrents work (only that it's sort of a peer to peer-type file transfer tool), so please explain to me; how does answering someones question about how you know how many people downloaded it in any way help them to pirate software? It seems like a pretty innocent question to me..

That's a question I won't be answering... teaching someone more details of pirated software access... um, nope! :(

I wasn't asking for more details of pirated software access. - I was asking how do you determine the actual number of downloads of a specific product from a pirate site.

Ummm, that would be none of your business. Information of this sort is on a "need to know" basis.It's not our job to satisfy your curiosity. :(

Why is it on a "need to know" basis? He does not want your numbers or statistics on anything. Nobody said they wanted that. He wants to know how to find out, thats it. :(

Just like people who write software/network protection are well versed in hacking software/networks... developers also must we well versed in how software is pirated, where to find it and how to track it.Now... why should I teach you those things? You have no legitimate need of knowing how to locate pirated software and check it's download statistics.

Mods, lock please. This thread is getting utterly ridiculous. Not to mention that I am absolutely shocked at the allusions thrown around by some devs in this thread. And to think I give you people my hard earned money.