Why should one or even a few dissatisfied customers feel that they have a "right" to call for a boycott of a commercial devs products in any forum be it public or private?? :( There was an interesting thread in hanger chat forum about six months ago which spoke to the fantasy that the "customer is always right".If I recall, that thread went into great detail on why the customer is "not always right".Brow beating devs or calling for boycott is indeed "over the top".

At large, within the strictures and norms of the society and laws in the country in which AVSIM is based, the USA, the right to call for such a Boycott exists, implicitly and explicitly. There is no "shame" in a disgruntled consumer making such a call.Whether, as a guest in AVSIM's house, it is in good taste depends on how you read this:

"The User shall use AVSIM Online's WEB Site and System (here-in-after known as the System) for lawful purposes only. User shall not post or transmit through the System any material which violates or infringes in any way upon the rights of others, which is unlawful, threatening, abusive, defamatory, invasive of privacy or publicity rights, vulgar, obscene, profane or otherwise objectionable, which encourages conduct that would constitute a criminal offense, give rise to civil liability or otherwise violate any law, or which, without AVSIM Online's express prior approval, contains advertising or any solicitation with respect to products or services except as may be allowed for within the guidelines set forth for the System. Any conduct by a User that in AVSIM Online's discretion restricts or inhibits any other User from using or enjoying the System will not be permitted. User shall not use the System to advertise or perform any commercial solicitation (except as otherwise noted), including, but not limited to, the solicitation of users to become subscribers of other on-line information services competitive with the System."

In any case, a moderator has entered and rendered a preliminary judgment: play onWhile the OP's "couth" may be suspect, the elements of his dismay are not entirely born of deceit - there are recurring problems with these products for a segment of the user base and frustration has ensued. It may not be tactful, but to imply he hasn't the right is perhaps equally "over the top."Brow-beating? No.Stating perceived on-going slights and suggeseting that a reasonable response is a boycott. Unsavory, but reasonable. There are so many times when Boycott has been righteously wielded in this community, that is hard to come down on it when it is fuzzy.The problem is, that the prohibitions in the TOU agreement above cast such a wide brush that it is hard to NOT offend with any strongly-worded exhortation and "vent" as was offered by the OP. In any case, I'm sure his call to arms won't dent sales appreciably.I realize that this is the FSX forum, but invariably the power of the base product is its extensibility with 3PD "stuff" to make our virtual world more interesting. The OP is basically on-topic then as he emotionally cries foul in the face of a perceived and impending slight. This is the "stuff" of user discussion forums and his call for boycott is no more serious than all the inane "M$" bashing which has colored this forum since it's earliest days.So, while OP may not have been urbane in his expression, I'm not sure how well we should cotton to another developer coming in and telling us what rights to expression we don't have and how, in general, consumer sentiment is "wrong." If OP can call for boycott, then you can certainly call for "silly customer." But if he can't do his spiel, then why you yours?Lastly, the OP says this:

Boycott this product

The B737PIC,, Vol airbus 1,.........lol

Those products have nothing to do with anything now. Feelthere and Wilco are not "developing" anything together, at least not to my knowledge.

Long live freedom of speech!!

"Freedom of speech" does not apply in a privately owned forum.

At large, within the strictures and norms of the society and laws in the country in which AVSIM is based, the USA, the right to call for such a Boycott exists, implicitly and explicitly. There is no "shame" in a disgruntled consumer making such a call.We all know the strictures and norms of society. While the right to boycott does exist in general, each of us must decide how that "plays in Peoria" as it pertains to devs, mods, (in this house), and the community in general. From our perspective this case is "shameful." Consider the mess if every dissatisfied sim customer were to call for boycott every time they didn't like the answer they were provided.My question is if that will not work in the brick and mortar world why would it work in the simulator world?In any case, a moderator has entered and rendered a preliminary judgment: play onOf course...So, while OP may not have been urbane in his expression, I'm not sure how well we should cotton to another developer coming in and telling us what rights to expression we don't have and how, in general, consumer sentiment is "wrong."Cotton however you like. Free speech works like a two way street. As to the thread I mentioned, you may find it entertaing if not informative.Nuthin' personal, just sayin...Same here, just sayin...

there are two 'fleet' wilco/feelThere products - CRJ and 777. DO NOT EXPECT high levels of real-world simulation from these product ... they were NOT DESIGNED to be 'high fidelity sims'. feelThere has always been clear about this. wilco places the 'lite' discription on their sales pages.

From the back of my CD case for the Wilco Fleet CRJ 2004 and I quote:Three highly detailed Bomardier CRJRealistic systems simulation : electrical, hydraulics, pneumatics, air con, FADEC, APU, FMS, GPWS.Realistic flight dynamics tested by active CRJ pilots.No where on the CD packaging does it say "lite" or "simplified simulation". Reading the product description on the packaging it says quite the opposite.One thing I've learnt about FS in the 4 years I've been in the hobby is that claims by publishers about the realism of their product have the merest tendency to be ever so slighty exaggerated.

No, it is not. Whatever gave you that idea? AVSIM is like being invited to be a guest at someone's house. Out of respect for the home owner, there are certain proprieties to be observed.Everyone here agreed to the TOS when they created their account. Like it or not we are now obligated to abide by the "house rules."

Doh? So because AVSIM is akin to a being a guest at someone's house,does it mean that the home owner can serve garbage as food and a guest must not say anything about it? Or put another way,if a product intended for the Flight Sim hobby for which good money has been forked out does not cut the mustard,one must just slink away into a corner and make no criticsim of it? Or perhaps AVSIM only merely exists for praises?

whom is 'their' support?the longest i've been 'away' from the feelThere forums is 8 days back in june of '09. besides this 'break' for a VACATION, what non-rant support question on the feelThere forums has gone 'unanswered' for 15 days? ... i can't think of more than a dozen that have gone 'unanswered' for more than a long weekend.--

Support was not sought from feelThere who according to the box developed the 777,but from Wilco directly.I have no criticism to make of feelThere otherwise I 'd not have the PIC737 or the ERJ135/145 in my hangar

Doh? So because AVSIM is akin to a being a guest at someone's house,does it mean that the home owner can serve garbage as food and a guest must not say anything about it? Or put another way,if a product intended for the Flight Sim hobby for which good money has been forked out does not cut the mustard,one must just slink away into a corner and make no criticsim of it? Or perhaps AVSIM only merely exists for praises?

AVSIM doesn't serve the food, it just provides the home in which to eat it. Forum members bring their own food to the banquet. Sometimes it's the finest caviar, and other times it's ramen noodles. If you don't want the ramen noodles, you don't have to eat them, but we don't throw them out unless the chef serves it up with a side of personal attacks or rudeness. AVSIM has NEVER prevented anyone from having an opinion so long as they can manage to do so without the name calling and disrespect.

Doh? So because AVSIM is akin to a being a guest at someone's house,does it mean that the home owner can serve garbage as food and a guest must not say anything about it? Or put another way,if a product intended for the Flight Sim hobby for which good money has been forked out does not cut the mustard,one must just slink away into a corner and make no criticsim of it? Or perhaps AVSIM only merely exists for praises?

I think this thread already proves that is not the case so what point are you exactly making?

You can fix that by selecting the medium models in the config program - the issue wouldn't have even come up had we not caved to customer demand to place (unrealistic) windshield rain effects in the VC. The issue is some sort of overload within FSX itself, not anything with the model - most users don't see the issue.

Thanks, but actually I've been thinking more about this problem: http://forums1.avsim.net/index.php?showtopic=284181 , sorry Ryan for not being very precise. The problem with with corrupted polygons is fixable indeed, although you loose visible icing effects too.Wheter it is an issue of FSX or the model, doesn't mean much to the end user who sees only final result. Using the same arguments you could make a million polygon model, and claim it is perfectly fine, only that there is some sort of overload withing FSX which causes bad fps and other anomalies for minority of users :( Anyway, I only tried to say that no addon for FSX is perfect, but that doesn't stop me from buying and greatly enjoying them :(

Interesting-yet freedom of speech is rampant in this thread.We pretty much let anything go as long as it doesn't degrade to insults to fellow simmers, developers, or threads that put Avsim in jeopardy of lawsuits. Add multiple account users trying to influence things in a clandestine and unfair way...I don't view it as much different than in the real world in countries that allow freedom of speech. You still can't yell fire in a crowded place when there is not one, and you generally can't use profanity in public places.This thread also illustrates what I like to call the ultimate control from the mods-none.Most threads self correct by themselves given a chance-this one seems to be doing so.It is only the rare ones that for reasons that seem to be coordinated with full moons go rapidly out of control...and for some reason things always calm down in the summer (better weather=better moods?!).

Geesh!! I must be mellowing in my old age - I actually agree with you, Geofa!!I expected the thread to be closed right after the first salvo and much to my surprise it is continuing - and in a generally civil manner. There's hope for us yet.Vic

Three highly detailed Bomardier CRJRealistic systems simulation : electrical, hydraulics, pneumatics, air con, FADEC, APU, FMS, GPWS.Realistic flight dynamics tested by active CRJ pilots.

yes, all true. all the noted systems are simulated.if you look at the product ... designed in '02-03' (yes, FS8) and released to FS9 in '04.compare the exterior and interior models to the available '03-'04 CRJ models. (at the time many of the 'highest fidelity' aircraft system models featured hexagon wheels ... ex., 767 PIC and dreamfleet's 737-400).compare the system simulation to '03-'04 models.the CRJs are really 'advanced' for their time when looking at the other aircraft available in 2004. now, seven years later, the simulation is lite. BEING LITE IS NOT A CRIME. actually being 'lite' makes a developer's products more accessible to the vast great majority of FS users. avsim.com is not representative of the average simmer.the FDE's remain excellent, IMO. the complaints are misplaced as the problem is the real CRJs being simulated ... all these airframes are not 'fast climbers'. the -200 is especially a 'dog' above FL200.the fact that there are so many CDs of the CRJs shows the products age ... CDs were still a significant method of addon distribution because of bandwidth limitations for downloading products.

One thing I've learnt about FS in the 4 years I've been in the hobby is that claims by publishers about the realism of their product have the merest tendency to be ever so slighty exaggerated.

is this different than any other item you purchase? based on the commerical for my brand of razor blades a supermodel will appear at my side ... why doesn't this happen? the commerical 'says' women 'flock' to men that use the brand :( :( be an informed customer.--

"why doesn't this happen?"Because they're all at my house, flying FSX, on a system based on the hardware requirements set forth by MS!!

"why doesn't this happen?"Because they're all at my house, flying FSX, on a system based on the hardware requirements set forth by MS!!

what? how do supermodels relate to hardware requirments 'set by MS'? :( you lost me here jim ..--

Interesting-yet freedom of speech is rampant in this thread.We pretty much let anything go as long as it doesn't degrade to insults to fellow simmers, developers, or threads that put Avsim in jeopardy of lawsuits. Add multiple account users trying to influence things in a clandestine and unfair way...I don't view it as much different than in the real world in countries that allow freedom of speech. You still can't yell fire in a crowded place when there is not one, and you generally can't use profanity in public places.This thread also illustrates what I like to call the ultimate control from the mods-none.Most threads self correct by themselves given a chance-this one seems to be doing so.It is only the rare ones that for reasons that seem to be coordinated with full moons go rapidly out of control...and for some reason things always calm down in the summer (better weather=better moods?!).

Different mods mod differently I guess... I've seen other guys state it is not a place where anything goes... meh

Different mods mod differently I guess... I've seen other guys state it is not a place where anything goes... meh

I would agree with that other guy-this is not a place where anything goes-either is "freedom of speech" real world.. :(