Good morning folks, I thought I would come here and ask what may be a very simple question concerning ILS approaches but for me being engaged in rather extensive ILS training lately, this issue puzzles me.So I set up a rather quick flight from John Wayne Airport to LAX in a B737-800 to test out a tutorial i found elsewhere on how to tune into the ILS approach at an airport and how to get the autopilot to navigate me in. Well, the tutorial seemed straight forward and I started my flight. While I was communicating with ATC at LAX, I glanced occasionally at my map to check my postion and such and when it came to time tune into the runways ILS freq., I did so and got the joyfull beeps. As I followed through with ATC's directions, I got closer to the localizer and then engaged the approach hold button...this is where things go freaky. It was now as if the localizer was repulsing me, once engaged, the aircraft immediately started a steep bank AWAY from the runway, so as would any other pilot would say "what the heck!" As I tried to compensate for this repulsion, I wound up crashing in the ocean but of course, being a noob and am still in the learning stages, I glanced off the water, re-engaged autopilot and everythign was cool again. Fortunately, I communicated a missed approach with ATC who then proceeded to redirect me around for another pass. This time, following all procedures, I did like I did before (this time I was actually lined up better with the runway, but again, I engaged the approach hold button and yet again, the aircraft began to climb and bank away from the runway, but I was ready this time and disconnected everything from auto. I wound up doing a manual landing safely (getting good at those, btw).So, in short, does anyone know why the aircraft would suddenly be turned away from the runway instead of being drawn in like everyone else speaks of in their tutorials and experiences? Would it have anything to do with distance from the localizer? Btw, I was using NAV instead of GPS, I had my speed down between 180-200kts, I did get the "diamonds" on the display so again, I thought I had followed everything correctly for landing. Oh yeah, would this issue have anything remotely to do with using default FSX aircraft?Any help anyone may have would be greatly appreciated.Thanks,Jim

So, assuming it's a standard ILS approach and not a back course issue or some such, here's some things to check:Make sure the exact Runway Heading is dialed into the the course window on both sides of the MCP (not sure if that's necessary on the default 737).Make sure the ILS frequency is tuned in on both NAV radios.Make sure the approach speed is stable and you are in landing configuration with gear down, flaps set, speed brake armed, autobrake set etc, and that you are not overloaded with fuel.Make sure you have the autopilot in 'HEADING' mode for the intercept, but with 'LOCALISER' selected on the MCP so that it will override heading mode when you fly into the localiser signal.Make sure you are flying into the glideslope from below rather than above so that you avoid spurious signal bounces (not really necessary in FS, but still good practice).Engage APPROACH mode when just under the glideslope and then press both CMD buttons to engage two autopilots for the approach (not necessary on the default FS 737).Al

Jim - on seeing your post I have copied my own posting on Pacific Airways with whom I fly frequenly. I have tried most of the solutions that Chock has recommended but not all. Anyway - don't feel alone with this one.Is it just me I ask, puzzled and bemused?I use FSX. Every time I try to do an ILS approach to Gatwick (EGKK) RW 26 as soon as I engage the Localiser and select the App Hold button the aircraft immediately turns away to the right. It happens irrespective of which aircraft I fly. I have checked and re-checked the settings, VHF frequencies and so on but it makes no difference. It doesn't happen elsewhere and I am now just about paranoid to approach EGKK RW 26. Everybody else seems to do it without problem. I like Gatwick, honestly, because there are usually two or more controllers on duty making it more interesting. However, I am sure the generally very patient VATSIM controllers have got an effigy of me with pins stuck into it! I also now believe that Biggin Hill are about to invest in some form of SAM missile system.Short of telephoning some form of desperation help line, does anybody have any ideas as to what this might be?Frequently MAP of GatwickRgds - Roger

Yes it is a standard approach (not sure what would qualify as a non-standard approach), I have the heading set in the heading window and the course window (I don't have control of an MCP as this is the default 737), I DID only have the frq. for the runway in ONE radio so i will make sure it is in both, everything with the aircraft was ok except for perhaps more fuel than normal, I don't know about having the autopilot in heading and localizer mode (again, this is the default 737), I may have been above the glideslope?(ATC told me to hold at 4,000 until established on the localizer...still trying to figure that one out) and finally, I think there is only one autopilot on this aircraft.Thanks for help, i will recheck everything this evening and see if it works.

So, assuming it's a standard ILS approach and not a back course issue or some such, here's some things to check:Make sure the exact Runway Heading is dialed into the the course window on both sides of the MCP (not sure if that's necessary on the default 737).Make sure the ILS frequency is tuned in on both NAV radios.Make sure the approach speed is stable and you are in landing configuration with gear down, flaps set, speed brake armed, autobrake set etc, and that you are not overloaded with fuel.Make sure you have the autopilot in 'HEADING' mode for the intercept, but with 'LOCALISER' selected on the MCP so that it will override heading mode when you fly into the localiser signal.Make sure you are flying into the glideslope from below rather than above so that you avoid spurious signal bounces (not really necessary in FS, but still good practice).Engage APPROACH mode when just under the glideslope and then press both CMD buttons to engage two autopilots for the approach (not necessary on the default FS 737).Al

ATC will normally tell you to maintain a specific altitude until 'established', which is fine because they will line you up for a localiser intercept from well over ten miles away most of the time, so by the time you are lined up with the runway on the localiser, you'll still be well underneath the glideslope. Selecting APPROACH mode will override altitude hold when it detects you are 'in the pipe' for the glideslope and fly you down the slope.Incidentally, you should try and intercept the localiser at less than 30 degrees offset to give the autopilot a decent chance at getting it right and not spilling the passenger's drinks.Knock the autopilot and autothrottle off at about 100 feet, retard the throttle manually and start to flare gently at around 50 feet off the deck and you should come in okay. Don't forget to hit reverse thrust too, once you are down of course.Al

Ok, let me get this straight, when you fly IFR and are in constant communication with the tower, at some point you get the message "you are XX miles out, turn to heading XX and descend and maintain XXXX until established on the localizer...." does this mean that you do fly the heading they tell you and stay on it until when? Does the establishement mean that when you are flying the heading that they will turn your plane towards the runway as long as you have the runway tuned in on the NAV? I can never fine a good tutorial that explains everything in layman's terms for the noobs to understand and follow. Sorry for the lack of knowledge but that's why I am here. I would jump for joy I could have one successful landing utilizing the autopilot and the radios. :)

ATC will normally tell you to maintain a specific altitude until 'established', which is fine because they will line you up for a localiser intercept from well over ten miles away most of the time, so by the time you are lined up with the runway on the localiser, you'll still be well underneath the glideslope. Selecting APPROACH mode will override altitude hold when it detects you are 'in the pipe' for the glideslope and fly you down the slope.Incidentally, you should try and intercept the localiser at less than 30 degrees offset to give the autopilot a decent chance at getting it right and not spilling the passenger's drinks.Knock the autopilot and autothrottle off at about 100 feet, retard the throttle manually and start to flare gently at around 50 feet off the deck and you should come in okay. Don't forget to hit reverse thrust too, once you are down of course.Al

Yes it is a standard approach (not sure what would qualify as a non-standard approach), I have the heading set in the heading window and the course window (I don't have control of an MCP as this is the default 737), I DID only have the frq. for the runway in ONE radio so i will make sure it is in both, everything with the aircraft was ok except for perhaps more fuel than normal, I don't know about having the autopilot in heading and localizer mode (again, this is the default 737), I may have been above the glideslope?(ATC told me to hold at 4,000 until established on the localizer...still trying to figure that one out) and finally, I think there is only one autopilot on this aircraft.Thanks for help, i will recheck everything this evening and see if it works.

Sometimes ATC doesn't play nicely.A simple check that you're not at fault is to start FS at wherever you want to land, say LAX. Load the 737 and adjust the fuel to say 25%. Use the map to check the runway that you're on and note the heading of the runway and the ILS freq. Enter the runway heading into the 737 course, enter the ILS freq into NAV1 on the radio, set the MCP Altitude to 4,000ft, speed to 180.Now go to SLEW mode, F4 to 5,000ft and then use the arrow keys to go back around 15 miles.....you should still be roughly lined up with the runway. Now rotate away fro the runway heading by around 30 degrees and then back up again until you are around 20 miles out. Adjust the MCP HDG to whatever you are now facing......that's the HDG not course.Ready, come out of SLEW and manually maintain a shallow descent, A/THR on, speed on, AP on, ALT on, HDG on. Use some speedbrake to slow it if you need to.You should fairly quickly be stable at 4,000ft and 180kts and not have crossed the localizer (if you have, just slew back). Now click the APPR (or whatever it is on a Boeing) and this may adjust your heading to give you a 30 degree intercept angle. The AP will turn the aircraft in anticipation on intercepting the localizer i.e. the aircraft will begin turning before you see the localizer become live. At this point, start using some flaps and once on the localizer (you should be around 10/12 miles out), set the speed to say 160, more flap and as the glideslope comes alive, gear down, more flaps etc, etc.My guess is ATC messed about, but you need to know you can do it right without ATC so you can then see what it's doing wrong.EDIT: That ALT of 4,000ft may be a bit high, use 3,000ft for this.

Edited December 2, 201015 yr by Paul Golding

To explain it all a bit. You fly from A to B, when you get near to B, ATC will descend you to a suitably low altitude and steer you for a point where you can then turn for an intercept of the localiser (this location is sometimes called the initial approach fix). At that point they will say something like:'Sexbomb Flight 123, turn left heading XXX, maintain 3,500 feet until established on the localiser'This means you turn to heading XXX on the autopilot with heading mode and with the auttopilot maintaining 3,500 feet. You should have the ILS frequencies tuned in and the runway heading set up in the course window (note that this is the EXACT heading, not simply the runway number, so it might be 237 degrees for runway 24, look on the map and click on the airport to find that data). If you look on the GPS, you should see your aircraft heading for an imaginary line you could extend out from the green ILS feathers, and it is this line you will be aiming for.When you turn on the LOC (localiser) button for the autopilot, the plane will continue on heading XXX until it flies into that extended line which the localiser beam is pointing along from the airport, so when your plane flies into that, the LOC part of the autopilot system will 'wake up' and start steering you for that line. When this happens, ATC will no longer give you headings, because you are supposedly lined up for an approach.When the autopilot has you lined up, you are then 'established' on the localiser. This is when you make sure you are at final approach speed and with the flaps all nicely set etc. You then watch the glideslope indicator diamond on the side of the PFD, and when you are right underneath it (i.e. it is in the middle of the display), you hit the APP button, and you are then flying the ILS approach fully automatically (on a real jet, you would also selectmore than one autopilot by pressing more than one CMD button). Soon after this, you will hear ATC say something along the lines of:'Sexbomb Flight 123, you are four miles from touchdown, cleared to land'Al

Hi,I had a problem like that once with an addon airport. Don't remember who designed the airport but it was payware, with the NAV radios tuned and the aircraft configured for landing, the ILS would line me up to land on an adjacent taxiway.So, it may not be the aircraft, it may be the airport (AFCAD). Is this an addon airport?, does this happen at every airport or only at KLAX?.

To explain it all a bit. You fly from A to B, when you get near to B, ATC will descend you to a suitably low altitude and steer you for a point where you can then turn for an intercept of the localiser (this location is sometimes called the initial approach fix). At that point they will say something like:..............Soon after this, you will hear ATC say something along the lines of:'Sexbomb Flight 123, you are four miles from touchdown, cleared to land'Al

Exactly how Al has described it is as it should work. ATC should vectore you on an intercept of 30 degrees (or less, depending on how far along the LOC you are intercepting), so that your aircraft doesn't over-shoot the localizer.From what I've quickly read here, it almost sounds like the OP is on a back course approach without the "BC" button being engaged, or vice versa. Thnaks, Bruce.PS. Good luck, and post back here if we can help anymore.

Sometimes ATC doesn't play nicely.A simple check that you're not at fault is to start FS at wherever you want to land, say LAX. Load the 737 and adjust the fuel to say 25%. Use the map to check the runway that you're on and note the heading of the runway and the ILS freq. Enter the runway heading into the 737 course, enter the ILS freq into NAV1 on the radio, set the MCP Altitude to 4,000ft, speed to 180.Now go to SLEW mode, F4 to 5,000ft and then use the arrow keys to go back around 15 miles.....you should still be roughly lined up with the runway. Now rotate away fro the runway heading by around 30 degrees and then back up again until you are around 20 miles out. Adjust the MCP HDG to whatever you are now facing......that's the HDG not course.Ready, come out of SLEW and manually maintain a shallow descent, A/THR on, speed on, AP on, ALT on, HDG on. Use some speedbrake to slow it if you need to.You should fairly quickly be stable at 4,000ft and 180kts and not have crossed the localizer (if you have, just slew back). Now click the APPR (or whatever it is on a Boeing) and this may adjust your heading to give you a 30 degree intercept angle. The AP will turn the aircraft in anticipation on intercepting the localizer i.e. the aircraft will begin turning before you see the localizer become live. At this point, start using some flaps and once on the localizer (you should be around 10/12 miles out), set the speed to say 160, more flap and as the glideslope comes alive, gear down, more flaps etc, etc.My guess is ATC messed about, but you need to know you can do it right without ATC so you can then see what it's doing wrong.EDIT: That ALT of 4,000ft may be a bit high, use 3,000ft for this.

PaulI'm now also a bit confused - are you saying that if you fly FSX without ATC, the ILS approach should work OK but if you fly FSX WITH ATC, this could adversely affect the plane's ability to correctly intercept and fly the ILS approach?Toni.

I haven't checked to see if it was happening at every airport, but I assumed that this being LAX, everything should run like clockwork.

Hi,I had a problem like that once with an addon airport. Don't remember who designed the airport but it was payware, with the NAV radios tuned and the aircraft configured for landing, the ILS would line me up to land on an adjacent taxiway.So, it may not be the aircraft, it may be the airport, is this an addon airport?, does this happen at every airport or only at KLAX?.

FS ATC is notoriously convoluted in the way it vectors you for an approach since it has to work for a number of different aircraft which have different speeds and such, so it errs on the side of caution and takes things slow, unlike the real world where ATC doesn't arse about and tries to do things in an expeditious manner. Most of the time it works okay, but it is sometimes a bit silly in how it sets you up and not as realistic as what would happen in the real world, which is one of the reasons why people often ditch it and buy Radar Contact as a replacement for the default ATC.The other thing which (just possibly) might be screwing you up, is that FS used a system called AFCADS for the data that it reads in relation to where the runway is, and this can be independent of the visual location of the runway graphic, which means that there are a few instances in FS where this data is messed up. It is rare and is most often caused by having installed add-on airport scenery which might then slightly relocate the runway to reflect its real world position more accurately. On occasion such installations can leave the old AFCAD for the default scenery in place, which means yours (and AI) aircraft will try to land where the older scenery was because they will be reading the old AFCAD data. It's not very common, but it is a possibility.Al

This is good practice and a test to see the aircraft response.ILS Procedure for FSX (practice) at KSEA:Set COm1 to Tower 119.9.Set NAV1 to ILS RWY 34 RT 110.3.Set NAV2 to ILS RWY 34 LT 117.1. (Both DMEs the same)1. Taxi B737 to position and hold Rwy 34 RT.2. Set ILS freq. for rwy 34 in NAV1 110.3.3. Set AP HDG to 343, ALT to 5000, and AT AS to 250.4. Takeoff. Set AP/HDG/ALT/AT to ON.5. Turn HDG to 168. Aircraft will turn to 168 and level off at 5000.6. At 23 miles DME, turn HDG to 003 and AT AS to 190. (The LOC needle will stay active to about 25 Miles). When the DME reads about 20 miles the Glideslope (GS) needle will go active and peg to the top of the guage and the BELOW G/S light will coe ON.7. Set APP to ON. The aircraft will turn to center the LOC needle and HDG will dis-engage. The GS needle will slowly come down and center. The ALT will dis-engage.8. Drop 3 clicks of flaps, Set AT AS to 160. Drop gear. The aircraft will fly 2.5 degree slope.9. Set AT AS to 150. Add flaps slowly to Full DN.10. At 100 feet, dis-engage AT and close power levers.11. Flare/land.I do a touch and go to try it again. You can make the radio calls, or not.Have funDaveIntel Core I7 975 Quadcore OC @ 3.75 Ghz (Air)Asus P6T DLX V2 X58 1366, BD Combo Plextor B310SA6GB (3x2GB) Corsair Dominator DDR3 1866C7GTHIS ATI 4890 1GB, Samsung 24", Saitek X-52 ProLogitech Z680 5.1 Speakers, G15 Keyboard, G5 MouseThermaltake Element S Case, Corsair 850HX PSUC: Intel 80GB SSD w/Windows 7 Home 64D: WD 300GB Velocity Raptor w/FSX+Accel+GEX, F4AFE: WD 1TB Caviar Black w/Data SH4

Jim,If you use default 737 or 747 make sure nav selector is on nav not on gps.Harry