How many people here also enjoy combat flight simulations in addition to the civilian sims that Avsim perhaps caters more to?I've seen various comments over time on various forums where some people seem to enjoy one to the exclusion of the other. At one end of the spectrum I've read some combat flight simulation enthusiasts declare that the likes of MSFS is boring and pointless because you can't shoot things down or blow stuff up. At the other end of the spectrum I've seen civilian flight simulation enthusiasts who seem to think combat flight simulators are a lowbrow persuit. I always found these arguments to be quite curious.Consider this:The simmer who can fly his PMDG NGX from Heathrow to Frankfurt following exacting real life procedures and then execute a perfect precision approach in adverse weather.The simmer who can successfully pilot his Block 52 F-16 over Pyongyang on the first day of the Rolling Fire campaign in the latest Falcon 4 derivatives.Who is the the more worthy flight simmer?The simmer who can successfully guide his A2A Accu-Sim Stratocruiser through a long flight without cooking the engines.The simmer who can tear through a formation of B-17Gs in his Fw190A-8/R2 and come out the other side unscathed in Il-2 1946.Which requires the greater skill?The simmer who can navigate his way across the Alaskan wilderness in the A2A Cub.The simmer who can hold his own flying an SE5a in a furball with a gaggle of Fokker D.VIIa in Rise of Flight?Which is the greater challenge?I'd say both can be enjoyed equally, and the skill and knowledge gleaned from one type of flight simulator can be very useful in the other.I know there are probably more than a few here who have little regard or respect for combat flight simulators, and that's a real shame because there are some excellent crafted sims out there now that can offer a real challenge to your simming skills and you're missing out on a lot if you just restrict yourself to the civilian flight simulators:Rise of Flight has some absolutely sublime flight modelling, in fact it's positively scary when flying a rotary engine fighter like the Sopwith Camel or Fokker DR.I. The simple act of taking off, flying a circuit and landing the Gotha G.V will challenge even the most hardened MSFS veteran. Likewise I defy anyone to not be totally enthralled the first time they see a big furball in Rise of Flight.The latest Falcon 4 derivatives - Free Falcon 5.5 and BMS4.32 will challenge your abilities to manage systems and sensors. Successfully flying a fighter sweep or SEAD strike in contested skies is a serious challenge for your ability to assimilate information and act upon it.How about the DCS series? Have a go at flying a CAS mission in the stupendously well modelled A-10C... Successfully flying a heavily laden A-10 with the advanced flight modelling, operating the advanced sensors like the very well modelled Litening II AT targetting pod, employing the latest GPS guided weapons, receiving a real world 9-line brief from the virtual JTAC, all the while avoiding enemy air defences is a serious challenge.Whilst the Strike Fighters 2 series might not feature the most advanced flight or systems modelling or the prettiest graphics engine, it has a unique plane set that is awesome fun to pit 50's and 60's era jets against eachother in an open architecture sim that has a huge modding scene.Il-2 has become an all time classic and has a similarly big and active modding scene. With mega-mods such as Ultrapack 3 and Dark Blue World the list of flyable aircraft in Il-2 is massive. It's the only place where you are going to be able to pit so many famous (and many not-so-famous) WW2 aircraft against eachother including a myriad of sub-types across dozens of maps and theatres and hundreds of user-created campaigns and missions.Whilst the demise of the classic MSFS franchise and it's reinvention as MS Flight might have been a bitter blow to the civilian flight sim enthusiast, the combat flight simulation world is currently enjoying something of a Renaissance after the rather dark years following the demise of such famous names as Microprose, Jane's Combat Simulations, Digital Integration and Digital Image Design in the late 90's.When you consider that Il-2 1946 can be had on Steam or in the bargain bins for just a few Dollars/Pounds/Euros.... a fully functioning and unlimted demo of Rise of Flight with 2 aircraft can be downloaded..... or that the entire Free Falcon 5 sim can be downloaded for nothing there's really no excuse for giving these sims a shot. What's more, unlike FSX, the concept of payware hasn't yet reached the modding scenes for combat flight simulators and you won't have to pay for the best addons or mods (Rise of Flight excepted of course).

I believe combining both genres into the same simulator would be amazing. After all, civilian and military both fall under the same umbrella of aviation. I suppose you could go and purchase the add-ons to get a nice fighter jet along with more carriers out at sea -- but the whole taboo of not allowing missiles, aerial fighting, etc (without having to spend money as I think I have seen add-ons out there for this too) still amazes me.

Well of course in FS there's no combat, but there are some nice military aircraft around, both flyable and AI, and military airfields with working AI.I sometimes take up an English Electric Lightning or F-4 Phantom and buzz the civilian AI and structures around busy airports just for the hell of it. I'm totally ignored, of course. :Clown:Just to add; I went and had a look at Rise Of Flight and it does look fantastic. Unfortunately, given my current system, it's a sim I'll have to look forward to rather than get right now <sadface>

It's already done in FSX! Captain Sim's Weapon adds combat to FSX, and we have TacPack from Vertical Reality coming (Hopefully soon)

Here's Capt Sim Weapon (Available now)

Who is the the more worthy flight simmer?

An interesting post, but I must say I find the above question rather weird. Worthy of what? The right to boot up their own computer and play a computer game? It just sounds a bit silly to me that's all.I prefer civil based sims because I'm not really interested in combat - nor am I any good at it ;-)So am I now no longer worthy to be a member here, or post?

When I first picked up a copy of FS98 and looked at it, I put it back on the shelf. After all, there was nothing to shoot down or drop bombs on. What fun was that? Fortunately, I found it later in a bargain bin and picked it up. Here I am, over a decade and several computers later, still simming.One's a Sim. The other is just a video game. But, that's a personal choice.

I sometimes take up an English Electric Lightning or F-4 Phantom and buzz the civilian AI and structures around busy airports just for the hell of it. I'm totally ignored, of course. :(

I must admit my most anticipated FSX aircraft at the moment is the Just Flight Lightning which should be out fairly soon. In the meantime Interestingly enough the entire Lightning family from the F.1 through to the F.6 is featured in the Strike Fighters 2 series, as is the Phantom FG.1 and FGR.2...... among my favourite aircraft to fly in that sim.

Worthy of what?

It was a rhetorical question aimed at those who think either type of sim is more worthy than the other. To some the idea of "just flying around" without blowing stuff up or shooting down MiGs or Messerschmitts is a waste of time. Others scoff at those who enjoy shooting stuff down and think the only type of flight simulation worth persuing is that where you do a 45 minute pre-flight, real world checklists, live weather, ATC, etc etc.

So am I now no longer worthy to be a member here, or post?

Not at all. The purpose of my OP was two-fold:i) To point out neither is any better or worse or less worthy a persuit than the other. There are those on both sides of the fence who scoff at those on the other. The reality is there is room for both type of flight simulation and the knowledge and skills learned in one type of sim can actually help you to improve your virtual flying in the other.ii) Avsim is mainly aimed at those who fly civilian type sims. I'm betting there's quite a few here who have little or no idea of what goes on in the combat simulation world and are therefore missing out on some really interesting stuff. Likewise I've no doubt I could find plenty of people on other combat flight sim oriented forums who would be blown away by the stuff that we have in MSFS and X-Plane.

I prefer Flight Sim over Combat Sim but that doesn't mean we shouldn't be enjoying both. I do try some Combat Sims from time to time.Consider many Air Force or Navy Pilots retire and take jobs with airlines. Many reasons why Flight Sim people can try out the Combat sims from time to time. If anything it will broaden your horizons...Cheers

Haven't played a combat sim since I owned an Amiga in the late 80s. I'm quite sure I'm missing out on great stuff, but there aren't enough hours in a day I'm afraid. That is really the downside of being a ''simmer". You go so deep into things that variety suffers.

For myself(and thats being a civilian sim flyer) the Combat sim such as falcon 4.0 IMHO has quite a bit higher of a learning curve for myself that is, You have to know how to fly the aircraft first off, then learn the systems, diffrent radar modes, BVR modes etc. THEN you need to learn a little about ammunitions etc.Again as A civilian sim pilot, I do beleive that combat has more to learn then say to fly a flight from A to B in my civilian sim. I have tried and tried and tried to learn how to fly using Falcon 4.0, but its just so darn confusing, and as said above, There just isnt enough time in a day to learn it all and be proficient at it in my circumstances.P.S i would like to get into a combat sim (but only one), maybe someday when i have more time I will be able, but that definetly doesnt make me feel not worthy that I dont fly combat sims and stick to civilian sims ;)P.S A little off topic, but does anyone recommend a war simulator(if there are any)? I could really see myself get into a War simulator!!!

Not at all. The purpose of my OP was two-fold:i) To point out neither is any better or worse or less worthy a persuit than the other. There are those on both sides of the fence who scoff at those on the other. The reality is there is room for both type of flight simulation and the knowledge and skills learned in one type of sim can actually help you to improve your virtual flying in the other.ii) Avsim is mainly aimed at those who fly civilian type sims. I'm betting there's quite a few here who have little or no idea of what goes on in the combat simulation world and are therefore missing out on some really interesting stuff. Likewise I've no doubt I could find plenty of people on other combat flight sim oriented forums who would be blown away by the stuff that we have in MSFS and X-Plane.

Thanks. Actually you are right about missing out. I had no idea whatsover of the existence of that Free Falcon stuff. Mind you, it's not really for me - I always get shot down :-(

P.S A little off topic, but does anyone recommend a war simulator(if there are any)? I could really see myself get into a War simulator!!!

This one is newish but I haven't tried it yet, still a bit too pricey in New Zealand:http://www.gamespot.com/wargame-european-escalation/When it comes down in price I will get it. In the mean time I spend hours on Empire: Total War as I am big into historical warfare.Cheers

I believe combining both genres into the same simulator would be amazing.

Agreed. Rise of Flight and the DCS Series are two modern sims that do this. It's just that they're military vehicles only...Rise of Flight is pure pilotage and dead reckoning with clunky, wobbly magnetic compasses. I've never had more fun than the extreme realism multi-player servers in this sim. Flying over the front scouring for enemies that could come from any direction. Realistic handling, realistic ballistics, realistic period instruments, realistic navigation, amazing graphics.DCS Black Shark and A-10C provide modern avionics, military munitions and systems, and other complex systems to master and juggle. After 2 days I could start the A-10C correctly. It took me a week to figure out how to deliver a laser guided bomb. It took me 5 weeks to deliver one without dying with AA coverage.Then I climb into my NGX or Maddog with FS2Crew and finish a 2 hour leg with no sweat...

t took me 5 weeks to deliver one without dying with AA coverage.

I love civilian and military flight simulators. Sims like DCS A10 and Falcon kick my butt, but it's worth it. I feel sorry for the guys that quickly dismiss military flight simulators because they don't know what they are missing. The excitement of calling up the JTAC controller and getting the coordinates and target bombing instructions, then rolling in hot with some heavy metal slung under your wings. It sure gets your heart beating faster as you find your target and hope that you won't become triple-A fodder or get eaten by a SAM. Good times.

P.S A little off topic, but does anyone recommend a war simulator(if there are any)? I could really see myself get into a War simulator!!!

That would depend on what you mean by a "war simulator".As ytzpilot pointed out, Wargame: European Escalation has recently come out and has been getting a pretty good reception. I purchased it through Steam but haven't had the chance to try it out yet.If you're into historical strategy the Total War series might float your boat. There's tons of free mods for the series and some of them are absolutely fantastic. If you want grand strategy then the Paradox series such as Europa Universalis, Victoria and Hearts of Iron can become quite compelling.There are also various tactical level strategy games such as the very highly regarded Combat Mission series from Battlefront, the Theatre of War series (which uses a highly modified version of the Il-2 flight sim engine), and even the classic Steel Panthers has received a makeover and works on modern operating systems.If you're thinking more along the lines of a first person experience then ArmA II is very highly regarded. It looks like a more serious take on Call of Duty but in reality it is very deep - a simulator in the true sense of the word. There's an active modding scene too and the included scenario editor lets you create pretty much any battle or situation you can think of.

Rise of Flight is pure pilotage and dead reckoning with clunky, wobbly magnetic compasses. I've never had more fun than the extreme realism multi-player servers in this sim. Flying over the front scouring for enemies that could come from any direction. Realistic handling, realistic ballistics, realistic period instruments, realistic navigation, amazing graphics.

Indeed. It's a fantastic experience. Only last night before going to bed I fired it up for a quick scenario - 3 Fokker D.VIIa vs 3 SPAD XIII. It's great fun throwing the wood and canvas aeroplanes around the sky desperately trying to get the enemy in your sights and stay out of his. I was only reading yesterday some of the previews for Over Flanders Fields Phase 4 which is due for release this year. It sounds like it might give RoF a run for its money in terms of single player historical campaigns...As for the wider subject of difficulty dealing with not getting killed in combat sims...Any experienced MSFS user will already have an extremely good grounding in the fundamentals of flight, how to control an aeroplane and make it do what you want. Things like taking off, navigating, manoeuvreing and landing should already be very familar. What is required is to get your heads around the new systems present such as the radar, electro-optical systems, protection systems and weapons, as well as the basics of air combat manoeuvring, A-A and A-G weapons employment. That's where a lot of the challenge and fun is.Learning how to employ the radar in the likes of Free Falcon or BMS is lots of fun and very educational. Likewise it's a lot of fun to learn about these aircraft, their relative strengths and weaknesses and how they were/are used in real life. For example it takes a lot of discipline not to get sucked into a turning fight with a Yak-9 when flying your Fw190A-4 in Il-2 1946.... or to always keep your speed above 450 knots when you're flying an F-4B against NVPAF MiG-17s.... or to never let yourself get below 10,000ft over the FLOT in FF or BMS.... or to always turn to the right when flying a Sopwith Camel in RoF.You don't have to go straight in at the deep end either. Most combat sims nowadays have training mission, and if not you can always set yourself up against an easy opponent to help you learn the basics. For example in Il-2 1946 you can use the quick mission builder to set yourself up against a large bomber or transport aircraft with no ammunition for the defensive armament and you can practice shooting them down at your leisure. As your skill and confidence progresses you can gradually up the ante until you are facing off against far more dangerous and difficult opponents.Don't also forget that unlike in years gone by when we had to wade through massive manuals, nowadays we have Youtube and most of the popular sims there have lots of user-made instructional videos which are a great learning resource.