I got it last night, and it was worth the money and worth the wait. It's that good. In addition to everything that people have raved about in this thread, I am pleased (and admittedly surprised, since I program for a living) that there are so few bugs in this initial release. There are a few, but they're tiny and not significant, and no doubt will soon be corrected with a service release. And the documentation...I can't believe you guys put all those tables in the F10 kneeboard. EPR takeoff settings, max EPR, N1, N2 for various flight regimes, V-speeds, landing Vref, all that stuff is in the kneeboard reference tab, right at your fingertips just like it'd be in the real plane.Dreamfleet, thank you. You guys did a fantastic job.Lewis "Moose" GregoryColumbia, South Carolina

>>DF has never tried to repackage their 727 panel as a 707>>panel...complete with a 3-engine overhead panel.>>Good grief!! Did they do that? Ours will certainly have 4>engine starters on it :-)>>Seriously, thanks for the votes of confidence Bob, and>everyone else it seems, the whole team really do appreciate>it.>>http://www.dreamfleet2000.com/gfx/images/F...BANNER_PAUL.jpgSo, Paul, are you saying that DF is going to do a 707?

Ask Paul Springthorpe, he's the one that's been sitting on a 90% finished model since just after the 727 project got underway :-)http://www.dreamfleet2000.com/gfx/images/F...BANNER_PAUL.jpg

Hi LouYou and the team have done a fantastic 727 it even feels great with taxi and landings on the runway with a big aircraft feel - superb.This will keep me more than happy for a long time as I wait for the 732!Keep up the great work Lou and seasonal greetings to you and your good lady.Best regardsBob Wright

Well I have chosen a third option. The Vistaliners 727 and Eric Cantu's 727 panel modified for FS2004. Flies great, panel works very well and it gives me essentially everything except the Engieers panel. Mark.

>>>Well I have chosen a third option. The Vistaliners 727 and>Eric Cantu's 727 panel modified for FS2004. Flies great,>panel works very well and it gives me essentially everything>except the Engieers panel. >>>Mark.Which is unfortuantely half the realism. lolBut to each his own. Fs is great because of all the options for everybody. :)

After reading my post above it really seems long winded... I wish I could go back and edit the thing to shorten it up a bit. Seems I repeated the same points two or three times, sorry guys... I was busy at work trying to type the thing and didn't proof read it. I'm having trouble re-reading the thing myself...I'd like to apologize to CaptainSim if I offended them in any way. They gave us a great 727 that made it allot easier to operate and appreciate this new Dreamfleet version. All those that owned the CS version will find no problem jumping into the DF727. Those that didn't own the CS727 will have a major learning curve. I'm going to keep both versions on my system because both are worthy packages (heck I was the one upheld the CS version until had the DF727 version on my system and saw the dramatic difference). I hope CaptainSim gives us an FDE update that would at least allow their plane to fly correctly (seeing as they have the DreamFleet version as a reference). I always hated landing the CS version because something didn't feel quit right. The CS727 was a great package in FS2k2 and better in FS2k4. I have to admit I've had allot of fun with it. My hope for the future is more mileage for the money when it comes to support and updates... That would really be nice for a change... :-) Bruce there are a lot of add-ons for FS2k4 that are just as old as PSS's A320 and they have recieved much more attention than PSS's offerings. Age has nothing to do with the issue some of us have with these add-ons... Even freeware planes have recieved better attention than some payware packages...:-roll

I will add a little on the CS 727.Having parted with good money to purchase the thing some time after release i was pretty shocked at the state of it for a payware release.Yes it has a great model of that there is no doubt and is still one of the best i have ever seen for FS.However what i didn't expect was.1)A broken flight director which CS refuse to fix.2)An FDE that was laughable at best.It flies nothing like a 72 and yes i have been in the front of a real one on many occasions.3)EPR gauges which moved when the wind changed and made flying a joke.4)Poor feedback to the community in there old forum here at Avsim whenever anyone mentioned any problems.I can only believe this was to keep as many people as possible i the dark over just how bad this product was even several patches.Now given i purchased it after 2 patches i cannot begin to imagine how bad it would of been on release.There is no comparison b/w the CS and DF 72's i am afraid.I am never buying a CS aircraft ever agian after being burnt so badly on the 727 release.CS are fantastic modellers plain and simple.However a payware product requires more than a great model to succeed.I am happy to buy addons but not ones i must then invest 50 hours in to make a freeware panel work with and mod a freeware FDE to make it fly like the real aircraft.Sorry but once bitten.Darren

Just to clarify some things and describe what happened:We did a poll at the DF forum as to which aircraft to do FIRST (this was back in 2001): The 727 or the 707. The 727 won, and we went with it, and announced at our forum we would do it. The 707 would then follow. The poll thread might still be in our forum archive, I have not checked.The final decision to do the 727 was made in the Drawing Room at London's Savoy hotel, on Saturday 8-19-01, by the DF team and Flight 1 Software's Tom Main. Yup, I have the pictures from that meeting too, see below.Sometime after, CS announced they were doing the 727. I think this was in the spring of 2002, as I was heading down to Knoxville, Tennessee to photgraph the F1 C-152 and DF C-177 that week, when I was also in communciation with Alex at Captain Sim concerning this surprising announcement from them. I recall discussing this with Tom Main at his home office one evening in Knoxville. We were quite concerned.Indeed, this market can NOT support two 727s.So, we let CS take the lead, and we took our time. A lot of time!Then they anounced their 707.Anyway, we knew that if we we let CS release their 727 first, and we saw it and took our time, well, you can figure out the rest.Now, we'd still love to do a 707 (my favourite airplane, and the same for Steve Halpern at Flight 1), but is it really worth it, with CS already having done it? Sadly, no, the market is not there for another 707, not when one considers the labor that would be involved.It would not be the 727 gauges +1 more. The 707 has a LOT of differences. Most folks want FMC-automated-autoland-EFIS airliners, not the "classics" (sorry, that IS the truth).Even with another 727 coming to market, we still stuck to plan and did the DF727, knowing that the release delay would help. However, at this stage, to start a 707 and wait a couple more years to release it makes no economic sense.Yeah, I spoke with Steve Halpern last week, and he made mention of us doing a 707. Steve and I get along well, I like to think, but you do not want to know what I said to him. It was along the lines of, "blah, blah, blah blah blah blah blah, forget it!" :-lolI think Paul Golding has something better on his agenda, but he just has to get me into the cockpit of one with my camera! BTW, no offense to Captain Sim. As I told Alex at that time: "Always best to keep your eyes on the forums to see what other groups are doing!" ;-) There were no hard feelings, and I think CS does some excellent work.Now, I have to get back to work on that 737-200, which WILL benefit from the work done on the 727 (same programmer, Nick Jacobs). Then, on to the the 737-300, -400, -500, and.... I might just find time to fly my Dakota this weekend! ;-)Regards,http://www.dreamfleet2000.com/gfx/images/F...R_FORUM_LOU.jpgI set the self timer on the camera, and just slid into place! ;-)Tom Main went broke going to the bathroom that day. Too rushed to go up to our room, he went to the public one nearby, and had to tip the attendant everytime, and he always never had the right change (it was like $2-$3 a visit!!) :-lol Ahhhh... the memories! http://forums.avsim.net/user_files/100802.jpg

Lou:I have every single one of Dreamfleet's addons and respect you highly as a flightsim designer.That said, I am somewhat dissapointed that you participate in this Captain Sim slugfest. (Now there is actually another thread on Captain Sim).(rest deleted)ricardo

Lou I for one am glad you guys scrapped the 707 in favor of the 737's... You guys had a winner with the 737-400 and it's great to see that version getting a well deserved update. I wish other developers would do the same and go with what the customer base is asking for, especially if it's a continuation of an existing product in their stable.Thanks so much for this 727 and like I said above, no disrespect to CaptainSim because they do great work as well. Darren said it best,"CS are fantastic modelers plain and simple." "These kinds of comparisons are usually started by the same immature folks. They add absolutely nothing to the enjoyment of the hobby. They are no more than flamebait.Often the comments they make are based on hearsay. I own both the 727 and the 707 by Captain Sim and have experienced few of these issues that people claim they have knowledge about. I've had no problem flying the 727 in FS9.The major improvement that I find your product to add is that the pitch control works better on Dreamfleet's 727." -- RicardoRicardo, this is not a slugfest... If lies and misinformation were being stated here you would have a case. Hopefully CS will listen and we'll see bigger and better things in the future. CaptainSim has a great design team. No one is perfect and discussions like this should prompt thought for future improvement if the party in question is in this for the right reasons.... :-cool

>Lou:>>I have every single one of Dreamfleet's addons and respect you>highly as a flightsim designer.>>That said, I am somewhat dissapointed that you participate in>this Captain Sim slugfest. (Now there is actually another>thread on Captain Sim).>>(rest deleted)>ricardo>> Maybe flight simmers are tried of some developers who claim to offer such *realistic* aircraft but when asked any hard questions like "EPR??" they get the typical responce "It's only an entertainment title". So maybe you should re-read mr Darren Howies' post coming from a guy who knows what he is talking about. Payware are NOT freeware, if you offer something for a price expect people to talk about their experiences with the product. DF seem to not have suffered from what CS has and all that could not be modelled by CS IS on the DF one.Best Wishes,[h4]Randy J. Smith[/h4]http://www.rawbw.com/~bdoolin/shinault/southparkcartmad.gif[h3]PMDG 747![/h3]Caution! Not a real pilot, but do play one on TV ;-)ASUS KV8 DLX | AMD 3200 64 | 1 GIG PC 3200 DDR | GIGABYTE 5700 ULTRA | ViewSonic VP192b 19" |

>Lou:>>I have every single one of Dreamfleet's addons and respect you>highly as a flightsim designer.>>That said, I am somewhat dissapointed that you participate in>this Captain Sim slugfest. (Now there is actually another>thread on Captain Sim).>>(rest deleted)>ricardoRicardo, I don't see where Lou insulted Captain Sim at all. He praised their work. When comparing the two 727s, one has to remember that the Captain Sim is a two-year-old product originally built for FS2002. Two years ago, that product pushed the limits of the add-on envelope. Today, the Dreamfleet 727 is doing the same thing. Two years from now, when a new version of Flight Simulator may be out...who knows?I've always been a 727 nut, so the CS 727 was the very first payware aircraft I bought for FS2004 well over a year ago and it has given me many great hours of virtual flying enjoyment. Now the Dreamfleet 727 has come along and is better. It beats the CS in the places where the CS is admittedly weakest--the FDE, sounds, and some of the systems modeling, while still giving us great internal and external graphics. They've had two years to learn from CS's mistakes...if they *didn't* do better, it would be sad.It's no insult to Captain Sim to say that the Dreamfleet 727 is better. Nothing can stay "the best" forever.Lewis "Moose" GregoryColumbia, South Carolina

>Most folks want FMC-automated-autoland-EFIS airliners, not the>"classics" (sorry, that IS the truth).And this is sad, because I know you're right. Still, the plane I would love to see someone do a payware version of--it'll never happen, but I can dream--is the DC-8. 707s get most of the love, and I have friends who have the CS 707 and rave about it (they learned a lot from the 727 apparently and fixed some of the weak spots). But the DC-8 was just as much of a workhorse, and is in wider service than the 707 even today as a cargo carrier, I still see them at the local UPS hub occasionally.It'd be a Herculean undertaking to pick one or a few variants to model--old-school DC-8s, the workhorse Super Sixties, the modern up-engined -72s that UPS uses? The HJG freeware versions are great, but I'd love to see a good payware design group like Dreamfleet or CS sink their teeth into a Diesel-Eight. Lewis "Moose" GregoryColumbia, South Carolina