lol- why is this in the 737 forum?

777 pilots sure have a cushy job.

Im going to buy fs2crew for the 777 but for one reason only and thats to operate the MPC. so I dont have to change views or be distracted ESPECIALLY that radio altimeter Knob! what a pain that one is in turbulence at night

Well, here's what I think (should anyone care),

 

I pulled the trigger on T7, because I really like PMDG products and I believe that $90 is a fair amount to show my support AND get another awesome product in return. I believe this shows support more than going on a forum shouting "PMDG ARE AWESOME".

 

After spending some time with the T7, I think I may be going back to flying NGX for the time being. There are several reasons for that.

 

1) I really don't like spending hours in the air. I like to take-off, climb, get to my destination and get busy with landings. Sure, one can fly T7 this way, but it just doesn't seem right.

 

2) I'm much more comfortable with the NGX. I had a full month with it, with the family away and light load at work, so I learned A LOT. At the moment, I just can't commit as much time to T7 and my efforts to fly it are ending in frustration. I fly simulators for fun, not frustration. I get that at work ;-)

 

[ stop reading here if you are a fan ]

 

3) I have too many, what appear to be technical issues with the T7. I'm sure many of them are user-inflicted, but judging by the forum posts, I'm by far not alone. I work in the IT industry and I know what new product releases mean. T7 is going through that. I support what PMDG is doing, but I don't have neither the time nor will to participate in that process. I don't find it neither entertaining, nor rewarding. I will patiently observe from the sidelines and wait for the SP, which I'm sure will get rid of this tiny little issues that plague me. 

 

Now, the above is PERSONAL opinion and I'm sure your mileage may vary. T7 is a load of fun and a very different plane from the NGX. You may enjoy it, but tonight I get back to flying my lovely NGX again. She missed me.

FS2Crew isn't for everyone. I found the original 737 version too flaky and you had to remember the exact sequences needed to get it to move to the next phase and the flows had to be just right. The ATR-72 version was great as the Captain's role in the aircraft is dominant.  The F/O does some mundane things, you do most of the operation. The 767 was the one the put me off as I found I was sitting there waiting for stuff to be done for me most of the time. The other issue is I'm not an "exactly by the book" simmer into following detailed procedures.  I don't get any joy from reading checklists, and most of FS2Crew revolves around that in one way or another.  Still I know plenty of people like what it gives them, it's just not for me.

 

Regarding NGX versus 777, the NGX is really a throwback. 1960s technology with a 1990s makeover.  All other modern airliners are in the 777 mould, with auto everything.  I wasn't a fan of the 737NG, but the NGX has made me like it a bit more.  Still think it's ugly though, especially with winglets attached.  The NGX is a complex simulation of a simple aircraft.  In contrast, the 777X is a complex simulation of an incredibly complex aircraft (and it still only scratches the surface as AIMS is not even touched).  Start using the failures and you will see all these interactions take place before your very eyes.  As I said I'm not into checklists, but the ECL system in the 777 is an exception. It makes them very easy and natural to follow.  This, along with the EICAS, is worth the price of admission.  Not just the normal procedures but all the abnormals too.  It's a fantastic piece of work.  Then there's the glorious sound simulation. I could go on, but it's all done equally well.

 

The 777 may be auto everything, but the complexity needs to be studied and understood properly or it will not do as you expect.  Mastering that complexity will be at least as fulfilling as it was to learn the more hands on NGX.

I understand where you're coming from.  The NGX was absolutely ground breaking when it was released - it blew everything out of the water and exponentially raised the bar for all airline simulations.  The T7 built upon and improved on areas of the NGX and raised the bar yet again but it isn't as ground breaking as the NGX was.

 

For me, I love interacting with the airplane and the NGX is a great medium between interaction and automation.  The T7 is pretty much all automated - turn everything to ON / AUTO and you're ready to start the engines and let the systems manage everything in between.  Having said that, it does it incredibly well and the T7 is a blast to hand fly.  Being that they are both Boeing airplanes (and the inherent similarities that Boeing aircraft have) there are a lot of unique quirks to the T7 that you must learn when flying it.  There are plenty of new and exciting challenges that come along with it.  I've put about 15 hours on the T7 so far (3-4 hour hops) and I still feel like I haven't learned much.  I primarily plan to use the T7 to explore and jump to other countries and continents and then bust out the NGX to hop around the country.

oooh.... that's dirty.

 

I'm just going to drop this right here...  :ph34r:

 

 

what more will this look on a projector in 3D :lol:

I understand where you're coming from.  The NGX was absolutely ground breaking when it was released - it blew everything out of the water and exponentially raised the bar for all airline simulations.  The T7 built upon and improved on areas of the NGX and raised the bar yet again but it isn't as ground breaking as the NGX was.

 

For me, I love interacting with the airplane and the NGX is a great medium between interaction and automation.  The T7 is pretty much all automated - turn everything to ON / AUTO and you're ready to start the engines and let the systems manage everything in between.  Having said that, it does it incredibly well and the T7 is a blast to hand fly.  Being that they are both Boeing airplanes (and the inherent similarities that Boeing aircraft have) there are a lot of unique quirks to the T7 that you must learn when flying it.  There are plenty of new and exciting challenges that come along with it.  I've put about 15 hours on the T7 so far (3-4 hour hops) and I still feel like I haven't learned much.  I primarily plan to use the T7 to explore and jump to other countries and continents and then bust out the NGX to hop around the country.

 

That all may be true Greg, but my absolute favorite part of flying these tubeliners is the approach and landings, and the T7 is far from a press-a-button, autoland, reversers, and Bob's Your Uncle.  To me, the T7 on approach and landing is the perfect combination of automation and piloting.  Problem is, I haven't done a perfect one, yet.  But I'm working on it.

That all may be true Greg, but my absolute favorite part of flying these tubeliners is the approach and landings, and the T7 is far from a press-a-button, autoland, reversers, and Bob's Your Uncle.  To me, the T7 on approach and landing is the perfect combination of automation and piloting.  Problem is, I haven't done a perfect one, yet.  But I'm working on it.

 

Well I was particularly talking about the systems and the interaction with those systems is much more automated than the NGX.  Of course you still have the option to disconnect everything and fly it manually.

Of course you still have the option to disconnect everything and fly it manually.

Wait ... what? ... Oh, no!  Are you trying to kill all my passengers? LOL

+1

 

FS2Crew is an instant crutch--an enabler of inproficiency. Nowhere is this more obvious than with the AoA training.

 

Couldn't disagree more.   FS2Crew is replicating the operation of the aircraft as it would be in real life.  Neither 737s nor 777s are flown single pilot :wink: ....... FS2Crew simulates actual Boeing/Airbus FCOM to give a wholly realistic set of flows.   It's just so not a crutch nor an enabler of inproficiency.   

 

I just cannot understand why you'd reach such a conclusion, certainly if you've used FS2Crew you'd know how far off that supposition is.

 

FS2Crew fundamentally shifts the simulated experience from one of unrealistic single pilot usage, to realistic line pilot operation.

 

Conversely AoA videos simply educate against that baseline unrealistic proposition of flying a 400 seat airliner as single pilot.    

[...]

 

3) I have too many, what appear to be technical issues with the T7. I'm sure many of them are user-inflicted, but judging by the forum posts, I'm by far not alone. I work in the IT industry and I know what new product releases mean. T7 is going through that. I support what PMDG is doing, but I don't have neither the time nor will to participate in that process. I don't find it neither entertaining, nor rewarding. I will patiently observe from the sidelines and wait for the SP, which I'm sure will get rid of this tiny little issues that plague me. 

 

[...]

 

I am with you on that one! Hotfixes and SP's for me to start falling for her, even if she is a 200LR (actually the 200er/300er may do it too) 

Couldn't disagree more.   FS2Crew is replicating the operation of the aircraft as it would be in real life.  Neither 737s nor 777s are flown single pilot :wink: ....... FS2Crew simulates actual Boeing/Airbus FCOM to give a wholly realistic set of flows.   It's just so not a crutch nor an enabler of inproficiency.   

 

I just cannot understand why you'd reach such a conclusion, certainly if you've used FS2Crew you'd know how far off that supposition is.

 

FS2Crew fundamentally shifts the simulated experience from one of unrealistic single pilot usage, to realistic line pilot operation.

 

Conversely AoA videos simply educate against that baseline unrealistic proposition of flying a 400 seat airliner as single pilot.    

 

+1

Couldn't disagree more.   FS2Crew is replicating the operation of the aircraft as it would be in real life.  Neither 737s nor 777s are flown single pilot :wink: ....... FS2Crew simulates actual Boeing/Airbus FCOM to give a wholly realistic set of flows.   It's just so not a crutch nor an enabler of inproficiency.   

 

I just cannot understand why you'd reach such a conclusion, certainly if you've used FS2Crew you'd know how far off that supposition is.

 

FS2Crew fundamentally shifts the simulated experience from one of unrealistic single pilot usage, to realistic line pilot operation.

 

Conversely AoA videos simply educate against that baseline unrealistic proposition of flying a 400 seat airliner as single pilot.    

 

+1 more.  

 

I have no patience with micromanaging, either in my professional life or when it comes to labor-intensive hobbies.

 

Yes, by all means learn the systems and understand the first officer's tasks (and you can do that in part by studying the first officer's flows in FS2Crew).  You can't effectively supervise a job if you haven't done it.  But that's not the same thing as doing multiple jobs at once, probably badly.  When it comes to operating the aircraft, two-pilot operation makes sense.  A panicked single-pilot scramble to stay ahead of the workload doesn't.

 

I'm also fine with automated systems - would rather concentrate on the big picture and the most important decisions.  CRM, modern systems and eyes outside the cockpit, not the confusion of "busy" with "effective" or "sensible" or "safe."

I see a distinction between two concepts. One is learning all of the systems, flows, etc. For that, I can see how FS2Crew could be a crutch. In all fairness to FS2Crew, however, I don't believe that's what the product is intended for.

 

The second concept is flying the aircraft in a manner as it would actually be flown in the real world, which is the niche I believe FS2Crew is trying to fill, and I don't believe the two concepts are inherently mutually exclusive.

 

This discussion has been helpful in recognize that my objective is actually one of conquering those two separate but occasionally

overlapping concepts.

 

 

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