GTA-5 isn't an 'arcade base'. Its a cutting-edge 3D engine that accurately simulates the Los Angeles area teaming with activity. (see 'Real-Life Locations' video above).



Granted the flying is currently arcade in places at the moment, but as Ive said before, this will no doubt evolve in future PC versions.

Meanwhile FSX is obsolete; P3D is being sold by the world's biggest arms manufacturer, and X-Plane still has a long way to go on the scenery front etc.

GTA's interactive realworld environment at least shows us what can be done on the ground, and more.

 

...and how big is GTA-5's world? Graphic engines like this is always touted to be the state of the art, and why can't FSX, XP or P3D look this way?  I'll give you they do look fantastic, but when you look beneath  you discover your in a very limited bubble. Yes each generation it gets a little bigger, but it's no where near capable of dynamically covering the world like FSX, P3D and XP is. Of course that means some compromises have to be accepted. Limited autogen load areas, texture LOD's etc. If you think FSX graphics are obsolete, (Which I highly disagree with you) these are the graphics used in multi thousand dollar Full motion Level-D simulators.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qa15V7rUe2I

If you think FSX graphics are obsolete, (Which I highly disagree with you) these are the graphics used in multi thousand dollar Full motion Level-D simulators.

 

Which just highlights that graphics are not the focus of professional simulators, and never really have been. It says a lot that a sim as old as FSX is still competitive graphically in that market........

 

I always shake my head that even now the US military with its multi Zillion dollar budget is training in tank "simulators" with graphics that make me think of Atari and pong, and would inspire open laughter on the modern gaming scene. 

 

The new young simmers that have to be drawn in to help this hobby really grow are much more accustomed to experiances like this:

 

The new young simmers that have to be drawn in to help this hobby really grow are much more accustomed to experiances like this:

 

Agreed.  And as I may have mentioned in the past, since the GTA series is mega popular worldwide, particularly among people in their teens and twenties, the virtual flying and 'flight-school' scenarios in GTA will no doubt inspire many to look deeper into flight-simming and RC flightsims as a hobby.-(and thereby waste even more of their time ;-) 

 

Nice graphics in War Thunder BTW.  The German accents make it more real.-and scary

Certainly anyone of us know better all the intricacies, the budget constraints, the logistic limitations, the needed vision and the successful strategy to develop a flight simulator, than people that have been developing flight simulators for the last 15 years. :wink:

Certainly anyone of us know better all the intricacies, the budget constraints, the logistic limitations, the needed vision and the successful strategy to develop a flight simulator, than people that have been developing flight simulators for the last 15 years. :wink:

Since nobody said that, there's no need to defend that statement.

Agreed.  And as I may have mentioned in the past, since the GTA series is mega popular worldwide, particularly among people in their teens and twenties, the virtual flying and 'flight-school' scenarios in GTA will no doubt inspire many to look deeper into flight-simming and RC flightsims as a hobby.-(and thereby waste even more of their time ;-) 

 

Nice graphics in War Thunder BTW.  The German accents make it more real.-and scary

 

The thing about War Thunder is that it really is a game at heart, but with all the money they made from that game entrypoint, they are also steadily enhancing the fidelity, systems, and flight models in the upper tiers of the game.

 

Gradually, as people have progressed and sought more of a challenge, they are entering those modes, and YouTube is now full of videos on War Thunder aerodynamics, plane capabilities.....

 

In short, they are guiding people into full-on simulation battles and making them like it! To the tune of 5 Million players.......

 

Train simulator did the same in a way, taking a relatively complicated simulation and providing an entry-point for new users. Four years later, and they have expanded enormously and are ready for new challenges.

 

Considering the apparent success of the strategy, and considering the relative stagnancy of the civilian flight genre, aren't the lessons of those successes at the very least something to look at seriously, most especially when discussing new beginnings?

 

Learning the basics of flight.........

 

http://youtu.be/J3n3FeVV3Sw

Wow, if the flight dynamics are as good in War Thunder, as I sense them while watching the video........then it's something I want! Just might be push, to get a new CPU sooner than not.

Wow, if the flight dynamics are as good in War Thunder, as I sense them while watching the video........then it's something I want! Just might be push, to get a new CPU sooner than not.

 

They are good, but sometimes don't exactly match the real planes. War Thunder created an unbelievable amount of planes from numerous nations in its first year, and they are still dialing some of them in to match real world behavior in the upper tiers. Patches come regularly, and a second phase is now in progress: integrated tank battles simultaneously with the Planes in dogfight mode. (Fascinating to be down in the dirt in your tank and look up to see the planes fighting overhead)

 

Eventually ships are to be added to the mix to create a fully integrated virtual battlefield.

 

The sim world has nothing to match that except perhaps DCS, and DCS graphics are a generation behind in the environmental department. In fact sims are just behind in that department, period. I think things like this will get better and better and maybe just bury us eventually in the irrelevant dust-heap of history if we don't wake up.

 

Tanks are beta arcade mode ATM, so take what you see as early times, and open for improvement.

 

I think things like this will get better and better and maybe just bury us eventually in the irrelevant dust-heap of history if we don't wake up.

 

Do you think pretty graphics would make people who are mainly interested in shooting down other planes to suddenly start flying civilian sims?

 

Microsoft Flight tried to make a simulator that would be more accessible to newcomers, we have seen how well that went...

 

I think a purely civilian flight sim ever attracting same amount of audience as military flight sims do is just pure utopia that can never happen no matter how good graphics we add. A simulator that would support both civilian & military flying in large scale on the other hand could do very well.

 

However in the end quite a big part of the simming community is interested in airliner flying which absolutely needs whole planet to be modeled in some detail at least, making a simulator that would provide the whole planet for simmers yet still having at least some areas modeled in great detail for air combat / GA ops would prove to be challenging for sure. 

 

Still in the end gameplay is more important than graphics, many of the most popular PC titles aren't exactly the ones with best graphics but the ones with best gameplay. 

 

What do we want, the whole world in FSX/X Plane quality or some limited area in War Thunder quality? I definitely prefer the first option as it offers me the ultimate freedom to fly where I want instead of where most users might want to fly. 

 

A simulator with whole world modeled in as good quality as practically possible, with both civilian flying & air combat, good amount of tutorials & mission content and easy access through Steam would attract the largest audience... 

What do we want, the whole world in FSX/X Plane quality or some limited area in War Thunder quality?

 

I've personaly moved away from the need to have the 'whole world' in one sim/game and instead I'm happier getting back to more basic flying in a smaller more detailed area where even a tree-top hitting your wing (or a tank shell if your into combat simming) could mean the instant and graphic breakup of your plane. 

 

I sometimes think we've lost the thrilling barn-storming spirit of virtual flyng, cacooned as we are in our warm cockpits on long-haul flights (which, by the way, reminds me of a very funny sketch on the Fast Show - a UK TV comedy - where an avid simmer shows his obviously bored girlfriend his MS-flightsim then makes her sit as a passenger while he flies a seven hour flight to the Seychelles.  He wasn't a heartless geek though -he brought her regular coffees from the trolley and made sure she had a blanket

 

But seriously, at the end of the day it's all just pixels on the screen of life. So enjoy whatever you fly.

 

Best wishes,

 

T.

 

.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-zGGpK3kCc 

.

GTA's amazingly detailed world

 

Do you think pretty graphics would make people who are mainly interested in shooting down other planes to suddenly start flying civilian sims?

 

I think there is some overlap in the markets. As far as Ms Flight is concerned, in another thread, Tom posted some interesting information.

 

FACT 1: From late 2006 until the closure of ACES in early 2009, FSX brought in over $100 million dollars in revenue to MS.

FACT 2: From the launch of FLIGHT until its closure some 3 or 4 months later in 2012, it brought in less than $10 million in revenue to MS.

 

Is was then pointed out that those were in fact some impressive numbers seeing as:

 

1) The product had only been out only about 4months

 

2) The initial product was free and follow-on  dlc was priced well below the cost of equivalent scenery in the FSX market, and in fact the entire package of DLC was less than the cost of the original release of FSX. I got the whole package with all DLC at a steam sale for $20

 

RichLP answered in the same thread:

 

I'm no mathematician, but if you extrapolate the revenue of Flight in a few months out to the 2 or 3 years of revenue stated for FSX, they would seem pretty equal to me...

 

 

That's it for me on flight, Its an old subject open to debate

 

I think a purely civilian flight sim ever attracting same amount of audience as military flight sims do is just pure utopia that can never happen no matter how good graphics we add. A simulator that would support both civilian & military flying in large scale on the other hand could do very well.

 

Which is what I am suggesting is much more within the realm of possibility for the graphical and technical engine of War Thunder than the opposite is for any "Pure" sim we have available. (Again, barring DCS!)

 

War thunder probably has the audience, the development money and surely the technical expertise to assimilate many aspects of serious simming (if they ever decided to do so) but we have very little ability to consider the opposite. We are also a bit less flexible sometimes. (Horrors! Warplanes!!)

 

At some point, the hardcore "niche" strengths of the current hobby may be completely overwhelmed by the draw of things like War Thunder and its successors, leaving the still living "Pure civilian sims" with very little air left in the room as far as significant new converts. No converts, no development, or at least not at anything above a geological pace.

 

I'm not talking about tomorrow, I'm trying to imagine things long term. If the current trends continue, and no major surprises occur, I see very little chance for the existing market outside of the good graces of Lockheed Martin, who could switch gears just as rapidly as Microsoft did, or maybe Laminar, who don't appear (to me) to be a very aggressive company, growth-wise. (yet)

 

A simulator with whole world modeled in as good quality as practically possible, with both civilian flying & air combat, good amount of tutorials & mission content and easy access through Steam would attract the largest audience...

 

I would agree, but I don't think the current companies are inclined to provide that. Certainly not LM and not historically Laminar. Whoever comprises the "Majority" of the remaining flight sim community (and I don't know who that is) the technical simmers almost surely have the loudest voice, and I suspect would tend to weight the attributes of any new sim so far on one particular direction as to effectively erase general consumer acceptance.

 

In the end, as always, I advocate for balance.

Trying to satisfy everyone will almost inevitably lead to an outcome that satisfies nobody...

I put the above aphorism in quotes because surely someone famous must have said the above somewhere during the course of history! :LMAO:

I put the above aphorism in quotes because surely someone famous must have said the above somewhere during the course of history! :LMAO:

 

I think its a good cautionary saying.....!

 

If your goal is really to try to satisfy everyone.

 

I would say that in this case though, pleasing a few million people is probably a better outlook for almost any companies bottom, line (and its ability to grow and innovate) than pleasing.......

 

Significantly less than that.  :unsure:

 

EDIT: I think train simulation is probably as much of a niche as civilian flight, yet they are growing and gaining wide popularity in the mass market and we..... are not. Why?

 

Dovetail Games is a British success story and developer of the world-leading Train Simulator 2014, producing cutting edge simulations and modeling tools for enthusiast players and gamers. The company has seen rapid growth and built an industry-leading portfolio of more than 100 downloadable add-ons for Train Simulator. Dovetail Games’ HQ and Content studio is based in Chatham, Kent, and also has studios in Surrey and Stirlingshire. Dovetail Games is currently recruiting for talent to work in various departments and simulations. For more information about specific vacancies, please go to  -Snip-

 

I think train simulation is probably as much of a niche as civilian flight, yet they are growing and gaining wide popularity in the mass market and we..... are not. Why?

 

I remember them selling the train simulator with good amount of default content for less than 2 euros or so in Steam, probably that has something to do with it.

 

A lot of people bought it just because it was half free, obviously some of those people then actually found it interesting and started buying normally priced DLC.

Tom Allensworth, on 26 Oct 2013 - 11:16 PM, said:

 

 

FACT 1: From late 2006 until the closure of ACES in early 2009, FSX brought in over $100 million dollars in revenue to MS.

FACT 2: From the launch of FLIGHT until its closure some 3 or 4 months later in 2012, it brought in less than $10 million in revenue to MS.

 

 

 

On the other hand

Tom Allensworth, on 26 Oct 2013 - 11:16 PM, said:

 

FACT 1: From late 2006 until the closure of ACES in early 2009, FSX brought in over $100 million dollars in revenue to MS.

FACT 2: From the launch of FLIGHT until its closure some 3 or 4 months later in 2012, it brought in less than $10 million in revenue to MS. 

 

 

On the other hand Grand Theft Auto V has now made more than $1 billion in worldwide retail sales in just three days.