Good. I'm glad to see you're aware of this issue. I wasnt sure if the ethical/moral angle of Lockheed Martin's P3D had been raised before within the flightsim community. 

 

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https://c479107.ssl.cf2.rackcdn.com/files/37256/width668/xknf4692-1386603693.jpg

I think there are generally more 'patriots' in FS community, who support anything to do w/ aviation including military applications, at least that's my sense.

I see buying Prepar3d as an act of support towards the great development team directly behind Prepar3d, not as an act of support towards other businesses of LM. 

 

Anyway in the end it's just supply and demand, there's a lot of demand for military stuff and LM is simply answering to that demand. US government is to be blamed for whatever bad stuff has been done with LM's products in  Iraq & Afghanistan, both of which admittedly are now in equal or even worse shape than when US government decided to invade them. 

..in the end it's just supply and demand, there's a lot of demand for military stuff and LM is simply answering to that demand. US government is to be blamed for whatever bad stuff has been done with LM's products

 

OK, so let's imagine that Philip Morris (one of the largest tobacco companies in the world) was funding the development of P3D instead of Lockheed.  In this scenario your argument implies that flight-simmers shouldn’t be at all concerned about supporting this tobacco company by buying a product from them (P3D) because, you say ..'it's just supply and demand'; there's a lot of demand for tobacco and Phillip Morris is 'simply answering to that demand'; and 'the US government, so you're logic goes,, is to be blamed for whatever bad stuff has been done' with P.Morris's products (i.e. ill health and cancer from cigarette smoke).

 

But whether its Lockheed or Phillip Morris that's developing and selling P3D, the bottom line is the same ..flight-simmers are supporting a company who's products are injuring and killing people, and innocent men, women and children too.

 

 

'Drone strikes kill, maim and traumatize too many civilians, U.S. study says'

CNN

http://edition.cnn.com/2012/09/25/world/asia/pakistan-us-drone-strikes/

 

 

Civilian Deaths in Drone Strikes Cited in Report

New YorkTimes

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/22/world/asia/civilian-deaths-in-drone-strikes-cited-in-report.html?_r=0

Extract:

'Even when the missiles do not strike, buzzing drones hover day and night, scanning the alleys and markets with roving high-resolution cameras'.

 

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No one noticed that Lockheed Martin is the world's largest defence contractor?

 

Many flight-simmers are smart enough to notice that Lockheed Martin is an arms manufacturer, even though many may not realise that they are the world's largest.

 

 

Also no one not noticed that the second largest defence contractors are Northrup Grumman, and Boeing?

 

But my point is that neither Northrup Grumman nor Boeing are designing and selling P3D to flight-simmers and the military, but L.M is.

 

.

...as you make the case as well, benefits from branching out into civilian aviation as a PR stunt alone...

 

You (collectively) do realize that LM still has significant presence in civil aviation outside of this little sim, and that civil aviation in general is hardly a "branch" for them, yes...?  See, for example: https://www.afss.com/

 

Grrr.  Link got chopped off.

 

 

Scott

Edited February 5, 201412 yr by tttocs

But whether its Lockheed or Phillip Morris that's developing and selling P3D, the bottom line is the same ..flight-simmers are supporting a company who's products are injuring and killing people, and innocent men, women and children too.

Still that's fault of the governments that make people use those products, not fault of LM for building them. As long as there's demand someone will always also supply.

 

Also whenever you buy anything made by an American company some of your money will always go to the US government through taxation, if you boycott LM you could always boycott all products with parts made by American companies. 

 

 

Think about Viktor Bout, "merchant of death", the guy who sold weapons all around the world, often supplying both sides of conflicts in many conflict areas all around the world. Yet all he did was answering to demand just like any merchant does. Should we blame the supplier or possibly the end user?

Humans kill other humans, weapon systems alone don't kill anyone. Removing weapon systems won't fix the root causes which are human greed and stupidity. 

You (collectively) do realize that LM still has significant presence in civil aviation outside of this little sim,

 

Sure. But I wouldn't class P3D as a 'little' sim as its sold to the military etc around the world.

 

Regarding L.M having a 'significant presence' in civil aviation. Fine, but that doesent detract from the fact that they are still a massive arms manufacturer that among other things makes hellfire missiles for the highly controversial Predator drone. 

In the same way, Phillip Morris's recent branch-out into selling e-cigarettes doesn’t negate the fact that their core product (cigs) kill people around the world daily.

 

.

 

 

Regarding L.M having a 'significant presence' in civil aviation. Fine, but that doesent detract from the fact that they are still an massive arms manufacturer that among other things makes hellfire missiles for the highly controversial Predator drone.

 

I think you misunderstand my posting.  I've no wish to participate in an argument about drones, aerospace/defense companies and their moral place in the world or anything of the kind.  I simply wanted to correct an apparent misconception on the part of at least one poster that P3D represented a new branching into civil aviation.  The roots of the company have long been a part of civil aviation, and the current evolution of the company continues to be so.

 

Don't read anything more or less into the comment than just that.

 

Scott

In the same way, Phillip Morris's recent branch-out into selling e-cigarettes doesn’t negate the fact that their core product (cigs) kill people around the world daily.

 

People not using something that they very well know is harmful would be a great way to prevent unnecessary deaths related to smoking.

 

There would be no problems with wars without naive and ignorant people who go fight wars just because they are told to do so. Certainly that's what an ideal soldier does, obeys orders without questioning them. Exactly the reason why I'm not very much into military stuff as I prefer making my own decisions as a thinking individual. 

 

So who is the one to really be blamed for civilian deaths?

 

Lockheed Martin for supplying these military systems?

 

The people fighting with those just because they are told to do so? 

 

The government for sending soldiers to fight somewhere?

 

I really can't put any blame on the supplier here.

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Humans kill other humans, weapon systems alone don't kill anyone. Removing weapon systems won't fix the root causes which are human greed and stupidity. 

 

That's a similar argument to the convolated philosophy of the National Rifle Association. 

 

"Weapon systems alone don't kill anyone". Well yes they do. When a child steps on an old landmine and it blows its legs off, for example. 

 

"Removing weapon systems won't fix the root causes which are human greed and stupidity".

 

I'll avoid getting into that NRA-style argument by saying that I haven't suggested 'removing weapon systems'. I was simply pointing out that by getting into bed with arms manufacturer Lockheed Martin, the flightsim community is helping to boost L.M's overall profits, and thereby helping to fuel the cycle of destruction; or 'human greed and stupidity' as you put it.

 

In the same way as I wouldnt invest my money or time in a tobacco company, for obvious reasons ..likewise I personally dont wish to buy L.M's P3D or invest in it's 'business'.

 

 

Globe and Mail

'Ethical investing: Some lines shouldn’t be crossed'

(Extract)

'I don’t want to share in the profits of a missile manufacturer whose products level villages and wipe out innocent civilians. Again, those who feel differently are free to stuff their portfolios with shares of Lockheed Martin"

 

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-investor/investor-community/trading-shots/ethical-investing-some-lines-shouldnt-be-crossed/article5286632/

..

People not using something that they very well know is harmful would be a great way to prevent unnecessary deaths there too. 

 

But you missed my point: which is ..the more money people give to the tobacco companies for e-cigs ..the more money these companies have to invest in cigarette production at home and abroad -where millions of children in Africa and India for example, get addicted and eventually killed by cigs.

Likewise with the arms industry.

That's a similar argument to the convulated philosophy of the National Rifle Association.

 

Some "humans kill other humans", yes. 

 

"Weapon systems alone don't kill anyone". Well yes they do. When a child steps on an old landmine and it blows its legs off, for example.  

 

"Removing weapon systems won't fix the root causes which are human greed and stupidity".

 

I'll avoid getting into that NRA-style argument by saying that on this thread I haven't suggested 'removing weapon systems'. I'm simply pointing out that by getting into bed with arms manufacturer Lockheed Martin, the flightsim community is helping to boost L.M's overall profits, and thereby help fuel the cycle of destruction; or 'human greed and stupidity' as you put it.

 

In the same way as I wouldnt invest my money or time in a tobacco company, for obvious reasons ..likewise I personally dont wish to buy L.M's P3D or invest in its 'business'.

 

 

Globe and Mail

'Ethical investing: Some lines shouldn’t be crossed'

(Extract)

'I don’t want to share in the profits of a missile manufacturer whose products level villages and wipe out innocent civilians. Again, those who feel differently are free to stuff their portfolios with shares of Lockheed Martin"

 

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-investor/investor-community/trading-shots/ethical-investing-some-lines-shouldnt-be-crossed/article5286632/

..

 

But you missed my point: which is ..the more money people give to the tobacco companies for e-cigs ..the more money these companies have to invest in cigarette production at home and abroad -where millions of children in Africa and India for example, get addicted and eventually killed by cigs

 

Is AVSIM really the proper venue for discussing this specific issue? What does Weapons Manufacturing and Tobacco have to do with Flight Simulation?

 

Political viewpoints should be Posted in a more appropriate Forum, such as the Comments Section of the news websites.

 

Maybe this thread should be closed.

 

Alan 

 

 

That's a similar argument to the convolated philosophy of the National Rifle Association. 

 

There's simply no way to get rid gun owners abusing their guns or using them in irresponsible manner without limiting access to guns, that's why a proper gun control is needed as the root cause can't be fixed.

 

However it's perfectly possible for governments to be responsible and not to start unnecessary wars such as the Iraq and Afghan wars have been. As United States should have some level of democracy in the future American people could start pressuring their government not to use military power other than when there's absolutely no other choice.

If governments and other similar groups behaved in a responsible way and weapons were truly the last resort then there would be no problem with what we have seen in Afghanistan & Iraq. 

 

 

 

Well yes they do. When a child steps on an old landmine and it blows its legs off, for example. 

 

Not without someone planting the mine in the first place. 

 

 

-where millions of children in Africa and India for example, get addicted and eventually killed by cigs

 

I would just blame their parents for letting them to smoke and not educating them about dangers of smoking. Of course it might be different in some very rural areas where people simply lack knowledge about its dangers, however I believe by now most parents should have some idea about smoking being dangerous. 

I think you misunderstand my posting. ....

 

Don't read anything more or less into the comment than just that.

 

Scott

 

Hi Scott.

No problem, I realised where you're coming from. 

 

Regarding your comment that: 'The roots of (L.M) have long been a part of civil aviation, and the current evolution of the company continues to be so".

 

Actually the current 'evolution' of the company is mainly in arms manufacturing and combat systems.....

 

Lockheed Martin

Company Overview

http://www.wikinvest.com/stock/Lockheed_Martin_%28LMT%29

[Extract}

'Lockheed Martin is one of the world's largest defense contractor by revenue. As a manufacturer of primarily electronic, information, aeronautic, and space systems, LMT has benefited from the increased defense spending that has accompanied the Afghan and Iraq War.

United States government spending typically represents about 85% of Lockheed Martin's revenue'.

Whoa!! I think you guys should pull it back a bit! This is suppose to be a flightsim forum, not CNN Crossfire. Continuing down these lines, will surely get this thread locked!!

Is AVSIM really the proper venue for discussing this specific issue? What does Weapons Manufacturing and Tobacco have to do with Flight Simulation?

 

Political viewpoints should be Posted in a more appropriate Forum, such as the Comments Section of the news websites.

 

Maybe this thread should be closed.

 

Alan 

 

That's why I backed out of the thread. Want to escape the blast zone of any mod-dropped tactical weapons.  ^_^

Is AVSIM really the proper venue for discussing this specific issue? What does Weapons Manufacturing and Tobacco have to do with Flight Simulation?

 

 

 

 

 

Hi Alan,

 

Regarding "What does Weapons Manufacturing and Tobacco have to do with Flight Simulation?".

 

If you read earlier in this thread you'll see that the link between 'Weapons Manufacturing and Flight Simulation' is in fact Lockheed Martin's P3D flight simulator -which the FS community is now involved with.

I.e - L.M is an arms manufacturer who is behind  P3D - a military and civilian flight simulator.  I was therefore simply discussing the ethics of buying P3D from an arms company  ..which is also currently involved in the controvertail drone programme where innocent civilians have died.

 

I used the example of not investing in tobacco companies for ethical reasons, and I pointed out that I wouldnt buy P3D for the same reasons.

 

Whoa!! I think you guys should pull it back a bit! This is suppose to be a flightsim forum, not CNN Crossfire. Continuing down these lines, will surely get this thread locked!!

 

I appreciate your suggestion but feel there's a valid point to be made regarding L.M's P3D and ethical buying (see my earlier posts on this thread).

 

Of course it may be that some members' simply dont wish to listen to this debate, possibly because they have already invested in P3D and the last thing they want is to drop it on ethical grounds.  If so then thats their choice. I'm simply putting my arguments forward. 

And if the thread gets locked then fine.  Its been a good overall debate on 'where we go from here' flightsim wise ..and for me its not flying a simulator funded by an arms manufacturer.

 

There's simply no way to get rid gun owners abusing their guns or using them in irresponsible manner without limiting access to guns, that's why a proper gun control is needed as the root cause can't be fixed.

 

Exactly.

Likewise,  as more and more ethical investors, associations and banks avoid investing and suporting arms manufcaturers and their products, and as public awareness of the damage that military invasions and wars cause, 'arms control as the root cause' can become a reality.

 

'Royals catch flak over fighter jets'

 

"...Their scheduled visit to US defense contractor Lockheed-Martin, which is selling new fighter jets to Norway, was under fire because the company manufactures the cluster bombs that Crown Prince Haakon has publicly opposed and which mean that even Norway’s own sovereign wealth fund won’t invest in the company".

 

http://www.newsinenglish.no/2013/04/29/royals-catch-flak-over-fighter-jets/

 

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