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jgoggi

So fps higher or lower in P3D?

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Hi, after about 2 weeks of testing with P3D, is it possible to establish with a certain degree of confidence if the 777 in P3D has generally lower or higher fps than in FSX in the following 2 situations?

 

1. With *more or less* the same settings as FSX (scenery density, autogen, shadows)

2. with the same settings as FSX *plus* cockpit and cloud shadows.

 

P.S.: Please, don't say "lower fps but in P3D lower fps are more fluid than in FSX" -  30 fps are 30 fps, no matter where!

 

Thank you.

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 Tough call as many users try to use the same settings in P3d as they did in FSX or even higher. The problem is  "scenery density, autogen, shadows", these "same settings" are VERY different between the two sims.

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P.S.: Please, don't say "lower fps but in P3D lower fps are more fluid than in FSX" -  30 fps are 30 fps, no matter where!

 

Firstly, this is not really true.

 

Secondly, as mentioned by Dave, above, you can't make a direct comparison between the two products because they are vastly different. I can't set the same exact settings as I had in FSX and make a direct comparison on even terms.

 

That being said, P3D is a slightly higher hit to my system, but I'm also running higher settings, DX11 is the default (and not an option) in P3D, and other assorted things. Still, I like it a lot better because it's usually more fluid.

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it's usually more fluid.

 

Ok, I understand that "more fluid" in P3D is intended like "more stutter free", because if fps are lower it can't be more fluid. Thus I would conclude that the 777 in P3D is heavier in fps but with less stutters.

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Ok, I understand that "more fluid" in P3D is intended like "more stutter free", because if fps are lower it can't be more fluid. Thus I would conclude that the 777 in P3D is heavier in fps but with less stutters.

 

Lower FPS can still be more fluid. No need to get into the semantics here. If you don't like the feedback you're welcome to go try it on your own, honestly...

 

If you want to ask a question, let people answer it. If you don't want answers you don't want to hear, don't ask the question because your decision is likely already made.

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No, I just want to make sure that P3D users don't see more fluidity with lower fps just to convince themselves that by moving to P3D they did the right choice, like with the move FS9-FSX, everybody said "20 fps in FSX are like 30 in FS9". I didn't see any difference between 20 fps in FSX and FS9...

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Lower FPS can still be more fluid. No need to get into the semantics here. If you don't like the feedback you're welcome to go try it on your own, honestly...
 
If you want to ask a question, let people answer it. If you don't want answers you don't want to hear, don't ask the question because your decision is likely already made.

 

Seriously, why are you getting so shirty with the guy?  He simply attempted to paraphrase, to clarify your response.

 

The attitude is totally un-called for.

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Guys relax.....it's no big deal. Let's not get all high and mighty over who said what and who did what. 

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I just purchased the 777 for P3D and have done a couple of training flights so far. Last night flew a short RW flight from FSDT KIAH to Flightbeam KIAD, using Opus FSI, REX 512 clouds (I don't use HD), GSX, FTX Global + Vector, and WoAI. I don't follow FPS so I can't give you figures. That being said, the flight was butter smooth. Zero stutters. All systems are different so no one can predict what your experience will be like, but my experience so far is VERY good.

 

Todd

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Lower FPS can still be more fluid.

 

Kyle is absolutely right. We had a lengthy discussion on that over at the Prepar3d forum. It is pretty clear that the perception of fluidity is more related to even times between frames than the absolute number of fps. 25 fps can appear almost perfectly fluid when the timings between frames are very even. On the other hand, 40 fps can be very stuttery if frame times vary a lot. And that's where Prepar3d has it's advantages. Especially with the PMDG 777 frame times seem to be quite even so that even with 25 fps it's very fluid. So it doesn't make sense just to compare fps.

 

Carlo Kraemer

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No, I just want to make sure that P3D users don't see more fluidity with lower fps just to convince themselves that by moving to P3D they did the right choice, like with the move FS9-FSX, everybody said "20 fps in FSX are like 30 in FS9". I didn't see any difference between 20 fps in FSX and FS9...

"YOU" want to make sure that "WE" made our choices for the right reasons! How about this choice sir, I choose to un-follow you and your drivel. UNBELIEVABLE!

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"YOU" want to make sure that "WE" made our choices for the right reasons! How about this choice sir, I choose to un-follow you and your drivel. UNBELIEVABLE!

Well stated.+++++1.Saying 30fps is 30fps no matter where is like saying 0-60mph is 0-60mph no matter which car!

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Seriously, why are you getting so shirty with the guy?  He simply attempted to paraphrase, to clarify your response.

 

The attitude is totally un-called for.

 

Not sure I agree here. There was a request for feedback. The request had somewhat of an unrealistic requirement to speak only in terms of FPS because that metric is fraught with inaccurate reporting. In other words, looking at FPS alone, you could actually have a bad visual experience.

 

I challenged this and got pushback ("if fps are lower it can't be more fluid"). That statement is what I was addressed in the first post. I'm all for challenging things when things are incorrect, but it's a known fact in the industry that people have been moving to frame time variance (FTV) as a benchmark simply because the industry acknowledges that FPS is remarkably poor at judging actual user experience.

 

So, 30 FPS is not 30 FPS, because 30 FPS with high FTV will look terrible compared to 30 FPS with low FTV. Again, this is a fact. I apologize somewhat for the blunt approach, but refusal to accept facts is unforgivable in my mind.

 

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/gaming-processor-frame-rate-performance,3427-2.html

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Not sure I agree here. There was a request for feedback. The request had somewhat of an unrealistic requirement to speak only in terms of FPS because that metric is fraught with inaccurate reporting. In other words, looking at FPS alone, you could actually have a bad visual experience.
+1

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In FSX/P3d in my test with the 777...

 

Same airport 

same runway

No weather(clear skys)

Same addons

Same LOD 4.5

Same Auto Gen settings,  Complex back one from max, Auto gen Dense. 

etc etc

 

They are not the same in I have VC shadows on but the rest I set to make close as possible. But I have to run diffrent NI setting to make the VC as sharp as FSX or close to the sharpness.

 

With UK2000 EGNX RWY 27

Orbx Global/Vector/OLC

 

FSX= 85 FPS

P3D= 42 FPS

 

I Run 30 Locked in both sims. You don't get the drops in P3D with mouse over showing or the loss in FPS when Locked compared to FSX.

 

So for me, Both are smooth as can be.

 

Before you ask

i7 4790K @ 4.6GHz(Corair H100i), GTX 780 6GB, RAM 8Gb 2133, Asus Sabertooth MK2 Intel Z97, SSD 1TB FSX, SSD 250GB P3D 2.5, SSD 250GB W7.
Controls= Hotas Warthog+Saitek Cessna Pro flight Rudder Pedals.

TrackIR with EZDOC

 

Only have one SS but from Torp, 80 Fps here FSX, sorry these are from paint no photoshop on this PC, so rubbish but hey.

fps1.jpg

fps.jpg

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Actually the T7 already feels fluid in FSX - so "more fluid" in P3D???

 

Actually yes it is.Makes you just forget the fps counter from fraps for a while.But i do find some bottlenecks with the autogen slider so leaving this at normal is the best with the 777 in my own opinion. VAS is still my biggest challenge because i like to travel alot around the globe .

 

Michael

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Thank you David. Now I CAN'T believe that one can't feel the difference between 85 fps and 42 fps! Go try a landing with 85 and then with 42, you will see how different it is, even if with such high rates having 42 is of course very fluid... With a less powerful system P3D will surely be more annoying than FSX as to frame rate (by the way, it's great that you can have 85 fps, I have a 4790 at 4.4 and a gtx 760 and the maximum I could get in a scenery like that in FSX is 40-50 fps).

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I don't need to go try anything, thanks.

You draw your own conclusion.

 

Am going to make a long post about how to get the most from the 777, it should help most people.

 

I only put fps on unlimited to test head room, I run 30 fps locked, P3d "feels" smoother at 30, like no stutters when you start an engine.

Running fsx unlimited at 80 is not smooth not as smooth as running it locked. Because when it needs to load something you start to get stutters because it has no head room.

Ask me if 30 is smoother than 20 fps and hell yes, it's a diffrent world with the 777 or NGX. 20 might be smooth to some but controlling both aircraft at 30 fps is totaly diffrent to trying at 20.

To me 30 is the sweet spot.

 

Your welcome by the way.

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A superb observation and statement, David.

 

I have no idea why some people have this obstinate obsession that FPS figures are the end-all-and-be-all of simming. I get exactly same rates as you, more or less, and I am more than contented with the smoothness, the lack of stutters even at UK2000's Heathrow Xtreme v3. I see the ASN clouds wafting past me both in External Spot View Locked and in VC, all going past smoothly as if I was on a real aircraft.

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I have no idea why some people have this obstinate obsession that FPS figures are the end-all-and-be-all of simming.

 

You have no idea because you have never tried a real flight simulator. Much of the realism and of the immersion factors are given by the fluidity and very high fps. I don't think that either FSX or P3D will ever be certified as professional training systems even because their fluidity can't be compared to that of the real simulators...

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You have no idea because you have never tried a real flight simulator. Much of the realism and of the immersion factors are given by the fluidity and very high fps. I don't think that either FSX or P3D will ever be certified as professional training systems even because their fluidity can't be compared to that of the real simulators...

 

Please refrain from asserting things that are incorrect. Redbird Simulations (a common fixture in many modern flight schools) used Microsoft ESP for quite some time. Obviously, now they're all on Prepar3D.

http://www.redbirdflightsimulations.com/

 

You can log time in those, so, yes, Prepar3D can be certified for use in a professional training system, for loggable hours. In fact, AC 120-45A makes no mention of a performance benchmark for FPS (simulators aren't even required to have a visual system at all, actually - I have 1.0 hours logged on one).

 

If you'd like more information on certified sims, I'd suggest a conversation with Kevin Hall (kevinh) here.

 

 

 

You're welcome to continue on this misguided journey about FPS, but I'd politely suggest taking the information and digesting it a bit to come to an understanding of the facts of the situation rather than your own opinions.

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Thanks for that, Kyle.

 

May I also add to the preposterous statement made that I have no idea of a real flight simulator that VRS will only sell their acclaimed F-18/E Superbug Hornet Prepar3D version to commercial users.

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Interesting,

 

I lock out at 30fps but still get the scenery stutters when taking off and flying when looking sideways...but so many say they have smooth... results all the time.

 

I do wish LM and Nvidia would get together and sort out the half synch issue, I think this would make things a lot better.. 

 

Cheers

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Try running the sim with unlimited frames. LM has advised against the frame rate limiter a couple of times. For most users unlimited frames lead to less stutters. My sim is especially smooth in two different situations:

 

1. When I can run at consistently more than 60 fps (on a 60 Hz monitor). Which only works with aircraft that have almost not fps hit (e.g. the A2A planes).

2. When selecting settings such that with unlimited frames the fps hover around 30 fps. That's exactly the situation I have with the PMDG 777.

 

 

Carlo Kraemer

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