On international ones, there are....

 

This would not be true is well. There are a significant number of flights between Canada and USA daily that are international and do not have an air marshal. Also between other countries like USA and Australia or many international destinations that would be a lower priority.

 

I don't believe their would be air marshals on board the smaller regional aircraft between the USA and Caribbean either, A lot of those flights from Florida use smaller regional or AA 737's etc.

 

The US Government would not share where they are using air marshals for good reason however I say the number was well under 1/3 of every international flight. I live in New Zealand and I don't believe for a second that air marshals have ever been used between USA and New Zealand either.

 

Air Marshals would be used strategically on specific flights as well as an intelligence program so they are used where needed. On many international flights they would simply not be required due to low risk.

More to the point however is that all Air Marshals are totally incognito. Aside from the cockpit crew and cabin crew, no one knows they are there... :ph34r:

More to the point however is that all Air Marshals are totally incognito. Aside from the cockpit crew and cabin crew, no one knows they are there... :ph34r:

And that's just like it is.  Same with conceal carry. You don't make it a point to anyone. If no one knows, except for those who need to, you won't easily be disarmed by others.

We still lack essential pieces of this story. We don't know anything or very little about the real Andreas Lubitz yet. Lots of unconfirmed rumours from media, but very few hard facts. For example, I am very very, very interested to know more about his medical treatment. I think that this could really shed light about what occurred, much more than any real or alleged revelation by his ex-girlfriend or the sites he browsed on the Internet in the days before March 24.

 

Before changing regulations in the commercial aviation with knee-jerk reactions or speculating about whether this accident would happen with or without a flight attendant, an air marshal or a flight engineer in the cockpit or whether the airline should allow a 'kid' with 600 flight hours to sit in it, I think we should first collect basic information about the past of this guy that we still lack.

Maybe his drugs will tell us more about his motives than any 'scoop' by Bild, Paris Match and Daily Fail. I say this because some drugs have a very bad record.
My two cents.

 

 

There are a significant number of flights between Canada and USA daily that are international and do not have an air marshal.

 

----------------------------

 

You're 100 percent sure? 

More to the point however is that all Air Marshals are totally incognito. Aside from the cockpit crew and cabin crew, no one knows they are there... :ph34r:

You are absolutely right. As I stated on a prior post, they are male and female, and except for the side-arm concealed upon their body, they look no different, and dress no differently than any other passenger putting their luggage into the upper bins to the front and rear of your seating position.

And that's just like it is.  Same with conceal carry. You don't make it a point to anyone. If no one knows, except for those who need to, you won't easily be disarmed by others.

Totally, totally agree. Larry, they are there....not only because of 9/11, but because of the fact that so many, many souls, can be killed by actions within the aircraft, and with that aircraft coming down to the earth. They are a much cheaper solution, with more potential stopping power, for an unresolved on-board incident, than the insurance payouts, to the victim's survivors, as well as the airline, for the loss or gross damage to the aircraft involved.  

 

Like I said earlier...there is lesser chance of an A.M. taking a plane down by means of rouge action, than a flight member, who is AT the controls, and might have personal/relational issues, financial issues of perhaps; out-of-control debt, and, who might take the plane down for those very reasons.  Folks....I bet you that Lubitz had a healthy insurance policy, that will be ultimately paid out, for there is no body to hold a post mortem upon, his breathing was regular and deep, he had no verbal interaction with the Captain, frantically trying to gain access to the cockpit, and there is no court of international law, that will be able to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt, that he was even conscious during that recording of his breathing, and manner of breathing.  They have no video/visual evidence that he actually, manually adjusted the auto-pilot down to 100 meters...EVEN though it apparently was set as so (with the airbus following its electronics). There will be legal battles for years...but the end result, will be that Lubitz's policy will be payed out.  

 

There is one case of suicide-by-plane off the coast of California 20/30 years ago, that is primarily responsible for anybody's general life insurance policy, by private, or by benefit of working for a company, that states:

 

You may fly in any commercial, or private aircraft, of which you are not P.I.C.  I have that on my life insurance policy,...and 99.9 percent of you reading this also have.  

 

It is because of the case of a business executive that had his license...and decided to take the corporate  plane out for a business jaunt, rather than the normal flight crew.  He went far out to sea, off the coast of California, and then the 'plane' dove down to the water, and was lost within its depths.  They (the insurance company) did not have either the plane, or the body of the executive to investigate, and the payout was in the millions, to the beneficiary's, and to the company to replace the aircraft. That...was the impetus to have a general clause, as mentioned post haste. Take out your insurance policy, and read it right through. You will see this restriction...you can fly...just not be in CONTROL of the aircraft you are within. You need a special aviation insurance policy, and be vetted for such, before you can still be in an insured state,.... and yet control the flight operations.

 

Lubitz...had motive, the action was planned. He went to work, with the intention of mass murder/suicide...and now there will be years of legal haggling, as to what that was...whom might have benefited, and so on.

 

I agree with several persons upon this thread, that having a door with the ability to be locked from inside, AND, that the code over-ride on the outside panel can be disabled from within...IS INSANE!!!  There should be...(a great idea from another poster, YTZ Pilot) a third-layer of protection, that the door can be unlocked by a command from the Cooperate Head Office of the airlines, or from the manufacturer  of the aircraft, which can be ordered to happen by means of governmental over-site, or law enforcement.  Had this been in place (and of course, with the understanding that it could not be tampered with by the crew member barricading himself, or medically incapacitated within the cockpit)..... Lubitz could have been possibly, stopped.

 

There needs to be a serious FALL OUT because of what happened.  There needs to be a corrective and immediate action taken, to insure that I and my loved ones, would NEVER be subjected to the risk of ourselves, falling victim to this outrageous turn-of-events, and our loss of life.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/flights/2014/08/07/5-myths-about-air-marshals/13724331/

 

The average quality of your workforce is typically inversely proportional to the size of your workforce. Imagine expanding an armed agency from 3300 to 75,000. What typically ends up happening when an agency has to rapidly expand is a reduction in hiring standards and a shortening of training time. Then give these reduced standard quickly trained newbies guns and put them on every plane. Sounds like a great idea.

There needs to be a serious FALL OUT because of what happened.  There needs to be a corrective and immediate action taken, to insure that I and my loved ones, would NEVER be subjected to the risk of ourselves, falling victim to this outrageous turn-of-events, and our loss of life.

 

Only things that can be done are better monitoring of pilot's mental health & the already implemented policy that places a cabin crew member in the cockpit when either of the pilots leaves.

 

Any other measures will be pretty useless. Had it been possible for the people outside to open the cockpit door by contacting the airline/ manufacturer Lubitz would have simply sent the aircraft into a dive, giving absolutely no time for people outside to contact the outside world and then request airline / manufacturer to open the door.

 

Really he could have easily crashed the aircraft even if the other pilot had never left the cockpit. A sudden nose down input on approach / after takeoff, perhaps combined with engine shutdown, would have brought the aircraft down just as surely. 

You're 100 percent sure? 

 

One of the last times I flew in and out of the United States was from Toronto to Chicago Midway and back and that was on a Dash 8.....I would say that it was extremely unlikely that their was an air marshal on board and this is considered an international route.

 

Most of my flying between US and Canada has been either Dash 8's or the Delta Airlines CRJ's and sometimes with as little as 25 people on board......do you really think their was an air marshal on board watching us on those flights??? Seems like a waste of time and money if you ask me and that Air Marshal could be put to better use.

 

Governments have budgets and utilize them so that their would be an Air Marshal on something like a Boeing 777 from the Middle East or Europe, but not likely on a Dash 8 between Toronto and Newark for example. This is risk assessment.

One of the last times I flew in and out of the United States was from Toronto to Chicago Midway and back and that was on a Dash 8.....I would say that it was extremely unlikely that their was an air marshal on board and this is considered an international route.

 

Most of my flying between US and Canada has been either Dash 8's or the Delta Airlines CRJ's and sometimes with as little as 25 people on board......do you really think their was an air marshal on board watching us on those flights??? Seems like a waste of time and money if you ask me and that Air Marshal could be put to better use.

 

Governments have budgets and utilize them so that their would be an Air Marshal on something like a Boeing 777 from the Middle East or Europe, but not likely on a Dash 8 between Toronto and Newark for example. This is risk assessment.

I guess that I should clarify...not speaking about regional flights, but international and/or global, long-route.

I guess that I should clarify...not speaking about regional flights, but international and/or global, long-route.

 

For that I would totally agree. Some Domestic Routes would be considered higher risk and some International Routes would be considered higher risk as well. I would say the majority of routes are low risk as there are too many of them and the large majority of the routes are smaller aircraft anyways. Intelligence must play a part as well, if they had received information that something specific was being targeted they would focus on that too, even if it was something as small as a Dash 8.

 

I recall the Queen of England flying on a Porter Airlines Dash 8 which probably had the highest security ever for such a small airline 

 

there is lesser chance of an A.M. taking a plane down by means of rouge action, than a flight member, who is AT the controls, and might have personal/relational issues, financial issues of perhaps; out-of-control debt, and, who might take the plane down for those very reasons.

Completely (and vehemently) disagree. An Air Marshall is a human being just like you, me and Lubitz, they will have a family/home life that can be just as colourful and varied as ours and they suffer the same effects of it. Anyone on the aircraft with a gun is an immediate and serious threat to it's safety.

 

Lubitz...had motive, the action was planned. He went to work, with the intention of mass murder/suicide.

We don't know that, all we know (and even this isn't official yet) is that he had previous known mental conditions and was signed off work by a Doctor. We have no idea if it was pre meditated, if something happened on the Barcelona nightstop or if it was just a crazy depressed idea he had when the Captain left the flight deck.

 

the door can be unlocked by a command from the Cooperate Head Office of the airlines, or from the manufacturer of the aircraft, which can be ordered to happen by means of governmental over-site, or law enforcement.

That would take months to get that kind of authorisation and who's to say a terrorist couldn't get it using guile, cunning and a con trick. If that was implemented we might as well not lock the door in the first place.

 

It wouldn't have saved this aircraft either, it only took 8 minutes to crash, the Captain was in the loo for (say) 3 minutes, it would take him another 2 or 3 to realise something was wrong, he only a few minutes knowledge that he was locked out (and didn't necessarily know his life was in danger until quite near the end).

 

Just out of interest, how did you anticipate the locked out pilot contact the company (or relevant authority) and describe the situation, establish the threat level and get them to remotely open the door. How would he prove he was who he said he was and how how would they establish his credentials and *shock* *gasp* make a decision in under, even, 5 minutes?

 

There needs to be a serious FALL OUT because of what happened. There needs to be a corrective and immediate action taken, to insure that I and my loved ones, would NEVER be subjected to the risk of ourselves, falling victim to this outrageous turn-of-events, and our loss of life

Sorry to burst your bubble (and I know you're a respected member of the Avsim team so please don't get me banned) but every time you get on an aircraft you are opening yourself up to all kinds of additional risk. Risk of bad weather, faulty aircraft, other nutters in the sky and all manner of other potential hazards. Deliberate pilot mishandling of the aircraft is incredibly rare and, as fresh in our minds as it seems at the moment, is highly unlikely. Of all the risks you need you and your loved ones protected from, this is one of the least likely out there.

 

Having said that, I agree that there needs to be changes in the way pilots are vetted (medically and competancy wise both intially and on an ongoing basis) to ensure that unfit pilots do not get at the controls of an aircraft. The stigma, job security and financial pressures of going sick need to be addressed to make it easier and more likely that unfit pilots don't feel compelled to come to work.

 

And (for the umpteenth time) THERE IS NO WAY YOU CAN STOP A PILOT AT THE CONTROLS FROM CRASHING THE AIRCRAFT!!!! No additional guns, people in the flight deck and remotely controlled doors will help. Whilst the precise chain of events that led to this tragedy may have been helped by some of these, if he wanted to crash the aircraft he could have done it with the Captain sat next to him. If you want pilots to be able to save the day then you have to give them the ability to ruin the day too, one events ruined day is another events saved. Flight crew make the call...

 

Then give these reduced standard quickly trained newbies guns and put them on every plane. Sounds like a great idea.

Tut tut Kevin, I was told off for my sarcasm...

 

 

Completely (and vehemently) disagree. An Air Marshall is a human being just like you, me and Lubitz, they will have a family/home life that can be just as colourful and varied as ours and they suffer the same effects of it. Anyone on the aircraft with a gun is an immediate and serious threat to it's safety.

 

I'm glad I don't have to believe everything I read on the internet. 

Lol....Put every single member of the human family behind bars because absolutely no one is safe if you start digging into this. What is needed is men of true discernment who know when to supply the necessary methods of enforcing safety as well as discerning when someone is actually a few marbles short and is in need of help, and keep them in a position where they can still be a blessing but cannot do harm.

 

Sesquashtoo, on 02 Apr 2015 - 11:38 PM, said:

Lubitz...had motive, the action was planned. He went to work, with the intention of mass murder/suicide.

We don't know that, all we know (and even this isn't official yet) is that he had previous known mental conditions and was signed off work by a Doctor. We have no idea if it was pre meditated, if something happened on the Barcelona nightstop or if it was just a crazy depressed idea he had when the Captain left the flight deck.

Are you looking for a note saying "I did it?" That you won't find. Nor is it necessary. The mounting evidence is frankly quite substantial not only now from both black boxes but also from what the German police have found plus a clear history of mental illness. Perhaps he was hoping that the speed of the impact would render both black boxes unuseable as well. Fortunately they survived and have been able to tell their story.

What I find disturbing also is that apparently Lufthansa knew of his depression but neglected to inform German Wings.