I don't have a problem with gun carrying air marshals.  I'm from the "wild" west of the United States.   A lot of us carry these objects called guns, and don't fret about everyone blowing everyone away, for little reasons. It just doesn't happen near as much, as some would believe. 

 

There's no way it happens in Europe. I know I wouldn't board a plane with an armed guy if I knew it, it's just plain insane. 

Reminds me of the Simpsons, when Homer becomes a police and Lisa asks him,

 

- who polices the police then?

- I dunno, Coast Guard?

 

Seriously though, I'm sure you wouldn't be comfortable in a plane of some foreign airline sharing the cabin with a guy holding a kalashnikov and staring at the passengers like he can see through you. Remember there's more to the world than just the wild west or even the USA, and even in America, imagine how dangerous it could be having a few trained terrorists attempt to disarm the marshal and who knows what's next... I'm sorry, but it's such a dumb idea it's not even funny

 

 

I don't have a problem with gun carrying air marshals.

BTW, I don't think there are air marshalls on every single commercial jet flight in the US.

Who's going to land the plane if the marshal shoots the pilots?

 

 A flight simmer who has intensively studied the PMDG manuals :smile:. I would swear many folk think they actually could.

 

In all seriousness, it isn't practical to have an air marshal on every flight, I simply couldn't imagine this at all in Europe, for a start, the low-cost airlines want to stay low-cost, and whilst it would maybe make people feel safer, I guess most would rather pay less for their tickets. I think they really need to sit down and think over a workable solution to the door lock problem, having a cabin crew member in the cockpit isn't enough, and if someone is determined to bring down a plane, a cabin crew member sat with that person isn't going to stop it.

Why is that?  You are already flying with one...and he/she IS armed...you just don't see it carried in the open.

The cockpit door is bullet and bomb proof so not even a "marshall" would be able to gain access to the cockpit if the door was locked.

So the Captain leaves the cockpit to relieve himself replaced by a member of the cabin crew who overpowers the PO and locks the door and puts the a/c into a dive. It doesn't matter which way you toss the coin there will always be a risk.

 

Please stop quoting the entire post you are replying to. It is both rude and unnecessary!

Edited April 2, 201511 yr by n4gix
Removed excessive quote. Again!

I wonder if a Glock 9mm could have damaged the door lock, enough to gain entry for the Captain to intervene.  I wonder how armored the cockpit door is...post 9/11, but certainly, a crow-bar is ineffective...as was demonstrated by the Captain in the last moments.

 

Remember I said that an armed Air Marshal was the worst idea ever? Well hold that thought...

 

Now we want a sub machine gun on board? And a special one at that that can disable the door but not harm anyone else or anything else on board?  :blink:

BTW, I don't think there are air marshalls on every single commercial jet flight in the US.

 

This is correct, they don't have the manpower to be on the (approximately) 29,000 commercial flights that are in the USA everyday

 

 

A flight simmer who has intensively studied the PMDG manuals

 

How about a simmer... and an experimented Call of Duty gamer for a marshall... WITH A BAZOOKA? Now if that's not total safety I don't know what it is

You guys are forgetting about the GTA5 guys that can also fly an airplane 

BTW, I don't think there are air marshalls on every single commercial jet flight in the US.

On international ones, there are....

I think we're missing the point here...

The Flight Crew are the last line of defence for both the known unknowns (weather, traffic, etc) and the unknown unknowns (???), to steal a phrase.

Adding another layer to "protect" people from the Flight Crew is a false economy, who protects us from the protectors, who protects us from them, and them? If you start putting another layer of personel/procedure above the Flight Crew the Captain is essentially not he Captain any more, he answers to the layer above. There is simply no need to do this.

Added to that, any additional personnel you add can also have their own agenda/issues that can endanger the flight. All humans have it, military trained or otherwise. If they're not pilots who are involved in the actual flight in question, they probably won't understand half of what's happening most of the time anyway, how can they possibly know when/if to intervene.

As tragic as this (and all the previous similar events) is, any human has the potential to not behave as trained and harm the very people they're meant to protect, any layer of "protection" you add just adds another person who can do exactly the same thing.

The Flight Crew are there to "protect" the travelling public. The travelling public are "protected" from the Flight Crew by having robust procedures in place so as not to let an unfit pilot at the controls. If these procedures break down (as events all over the world have shown they can - but let's not forget we don't know how many people have been quite rightly grounded in the past and saved an airliner) then I'm afraid there's little you can do but hope that the good guy wins.

Adding extra procedures and humans to the solution only increases the chances of someone going crazy and killing everyone. I'd always prefer that the ultimate person in charge of an airliner is an operating pilot, simple as that.

I think it's fair to say that given the amount of flying that takes place these days, the chances of being involved in an accident are extremely rare and for that accident to be caused solely and intentionally by the Flight Crew is even rarer still. Just because it's happened recently doesn't mean it's suddenly more likely. Of course, I'm sure there are lessons to be learnt from this event but I hope they are restricted to what happens on the ground and don't influence the daily operations of airliners.

 

Although, if we're coming up with (silly) ideas to stop this happening again, how about we just don't lock the flight deck door? Captain would have been able to get back in the flight deck and saved the day, problem solved, let's do that then...
 

how about we just don't lock the flight deck door? Captain would have been able to get back in the flight deck and saved the day, problem solved, let's do that then...

 

...then you might get terrorists etc.

 

The answer is to ask what are the risks. Is it more likely be get terrorist attack or a suicidal pilot?  I have read of several terrost attacks but only one  suidical pilot. other than EgyptAir Flight 990 where the NTSB finding was that "...as a result of the relief first officer's flight control inputs. The reason for the relief first officer's actions was not determined."

Truth is Andreas Lubitz was a guy like many others until 9:30Z of March 24, 2015. Yes, he suffered from depression, so what? According to several unofficial sources, 20-30% of the world populations suffers from this disease, nonetheless they are not supposed to kill themselves and other 150 people in any way and at any time. I am positive that many other pilots in other airlines also suffer or suffered from some kind of depression at some point. On the other side, there are several cases of pilots who apparently had no previous record of depression, mental illness or radicalism and nonetheless crashed their aircraft with a deliberate action.

 

It is very easy to blame someone today, but truth is that human psychology is incredibly complex and human behaviour is often unpredictable.

Well said, I could not have said it better myself..

Well said, I could not have said it better myself..

 

Seconded.

The Air Marshall, would be responsible, for not only the passenger cabin's peace and security,......but now, the very flight deck, itself!!!

 

 

 

'The Lubitz Tragedy'.......would never happen again....never again.

 

 

 

I can think of some loopholes in that claim. For instance, the air marshall him/herself may be a cause for concern. If they are suicidal, they might overpower the pilots - being armed, that should not be a problem. Or they might just start shooting at things. The next case might be different still. Having another pilot/crew would be sufficient.

 

Just my opinion, of course.

 

Sascha

I think we're missing the point here...

 

<snipped for brevity>

 

Although, if we're coming up with (silly) ideas to stop this happening again, how about we just don't lock the flight deck door? Captain would have been able to get back in the flight deck and saved the day, problem solved, let's do that then...

 

Thank you for this succinct summary of the issue.

Edited April 2, 201511 yr by n4gix
Removed excessive quote.

They found the FDR.

http://avherald.com/h?article=483a5651&opt=1