Are expectations of Carenado too high for this community?

[ckyliu 1,749]

But people time and again fail to vote with their wallets.  (I've been guilty of that too in the past).    If you spend what you consider to be a premium price and find the product disappointing, then there is no logical reason to repeat that with the next (similarly priced, similar type, aircraft).

 

... I never took the bait for the Hawker.   As soon as I saw early reports of the usual bugs; unreliable autopilots, poor APPR mode performance, features that appear to have been misunderstood by Carenado, etc, I knew I'd made the right decision; for me, at least.

 

And therein lies the crux of the matter! I don't think community expectations are unreasonable given Carenado's new higher pricing points, but whilst customers keep moaning they keep buying new releases at the higher prices.

 

Why should Carenado spend more time and money on product development when their sales are buoyant anyway? There's no incentive because they wouldn't recoup the additional investment through extra sales.

 

The hideous customer feedback on the S550 was enough to make me hold off purchasing the H850XP until customers had a chance to make comments on the first service pack. And I've voted with my wallet, as much as I love the H850XP I'm not paying that price for a product of that quality! I'd rather reward developers for in-depth simulations, such as Majestic's Q400 which is similar money to Carenado's latest offerings.

 

To be frank, anyone who knowingly pays more for a product than it is worth to them, is a fool!

 

The community is its own worst enemy, continually spending money based on how they hope products will be, rather than how existing owners/reviews are actually reporting them to be.

[louisdecoolste 12]

I'm another who has stopped taking the bait. Carenado/Alabeo are the McDonalds of the flight sim world. Pretty packaging and a smart layout, but ultimately what you get is plastic, unsatisfying and unlikely to be improved upon, even when the errors are brought to their attention. Usually repetitively. 

 

Unfortunately for them, with the move to P3D I am becoming a far smarter consumer and learned they miss my money more than I miss the frustration and incompetence of their products. 

 

If they raise their game that might change. But it won't change if they just change their prices - and especially not if they keep raising them while delivering ever less on the quality front.

 

What we all need to understand is that one person can make a massive difference given the relatively small size of the sim addon market - even a handful of non-purchasers will be hitting them. Hard. What they don't seem to be doing is learning from their past mistakes and not repeating them. 

 

The old adage is never truer than today: "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."

 

I'm now applying the same lesson to other developers who think they can play at customer support and whine like little gurlz when they fail to deliver on it. 

 

In the meantime, A2A, Real Air and the others for whom customer service and VFM is more than just lip service get my money in increasing amounts. I am happy to support the developer who supports me, even if their product isn't the sort of thing I would buy normally.

 

Basically, I take the Carenado money, and give it to someone else. We all should. And there are increasing signs that we do. Look at how little traffic this forum engenders for previous shabby product that hasn't been patched or service packed to adequate levels. 

[jabloomf1230 2,445]

I agree with everything in the above post. The overall quality of add-on aircraft for FSX/P3D has improved substantially and Carenado has not kept up. Their products are still back in 2005.

[Jim Robinson 122]

I see a lot of folks explaining why they'll never buy Carenado again but I don't see anyone really screaming because the Navajo isn't meeting their expectations, the few complaints I've read really come down to personal preference. That's noteworthy IMO but nobody seems to be paying any attention because they're hung up on something that happened X years ago and they have a self-imposed boycott in place.

 

In fairness I'm guilty of the same attitude towards A2A, I wasn't impressed with the flight model on the 172, in fact I thought it was completely unrealistic and I couldn't see where a silly rag in the engine cowl inlet made the addon worth $55 or whatever it was, that just isn't my thing and it doesn't add "realism" for me. I'd rather fly one of Bernt's FDEs any day. My 172 got shuffled into the back corner of the hangar with 2.8 hrs on it and hasn't moved in well over a year. Consequently I haven't bought another A2A since. I guess I should give A2A a chance to improve as well so maybe I'll try the Comanche when I get tired of the Navajo.

[Bert Pieke 7,584]

I see a lot of folks explaining why they'll never buy Carenado again but I don't see anyone really screaming because the Navajo isn't meeting their expectations, the few complaints I've read really come down to personal preference. That's noteworthy IMO but nobody seems to be paying any attention because they're hung up on something that happened X years ago and they have a self-imposed boycott in place.

 

In fairness I'm guilty of the same attitude towards A2A, I wasn't impressed with the flight model on the 172, in fact I thought it was completely unrealistic and I couldn't see where a silly rag in the engine cowl inlet made the addon worth $55 or whatever it was, that just isn't my thing and it doesn't add "realism" for me. I'd rather fly one of Bernt's FDEs any day. My 172 got shuffled into the back corner of the hangar with 2.8 hrs on it and hasn't moved in well over a year. Consequently I haven't bought another A2A since. I guess I should give A2A a chance to improve as well so maybe I'll try the Comanche when I get tired of the Navajo.

 

Hi Jim,

 

I feel the same way...  Carenado's main shortcoming is releasing complex planes with dumbed down systems and avionics, or worse, malfunctioning systems and avionics..  Their simpler releases are still my favorites, period.

 

I also was disappointed with the a2a C172, but the Cherokee and Comanche are both master pieces, IF you adjust your flight controllers to the way they like to have them set.  (Zero nullzone, and max sensitivity).  That made all the difference for me (and others..)

 

When you get tired of the Navaho, do give the Comanche a chance - I think you will like it..

[Guest Mik75]

I love the A2A C182, the Comanche, but I also love my Alabeo DA42 TwinStar, the Hawker and the Navajo, all for different reasons. But I wouldn't want miss a single one! ;-)

[Patco Lch 1,464]

I've enjoyed using the Titan 404. Having said that I wanted to point out an interesting article in the current PC Pilot (JUL-AUG) titled "What Makes A Popular GA Aircraft?" It has interviews  with Fernando Herrera of Carenado/Alabeo and Rob Young of Real Air. This may give some insight into the philosophy these developers' approach their work with. Last month's copy had an interview with Scott Gentile of A2A. I'm glad we have a diverse choice. As good as A2A is, I wanted a a heavy twin over another single engine since I have two of their works. A2A just doesn't yet have the variety. Maybe some day. 

[C525B 86]

I can't put my finger on Carenado....I just don't know who they really think they are.  I'm not sure that their commitment is actually to making "lite" add-ons.  Yes, piston twins like the 404 and Navajo are inherently "lite", but I think they were really trying hard with the S550 and the Hawker by offering an FMS, etc. 

 

Carenado's marketing-speak would lead you to believe that they were pushing out PMDG-level stuff, however any airplane more complicated than a piston twin seems to be completely over their heads.  It's painfully obvious when you look at the Citation and Hawker and you see all the bloopers they made with some of the most basic elements: autopilots that won't capture altitude, switches that have backwards functionality, or one that made me really chuckle...the "FL Alert" in the Hawker.  It's a tiny feature, but I'm going to use this as a long-winded example because I think it exemplifies Carenado's technical ignorance: 

 

On the real Pro Line, FL Alert just enables/disables a few visual cues as you approach your selected altitude (it makes the altitude readout and the selected altitude field flash a few times), but on the Carenado Hawker, it just makes the altitude readout flash yellow unconditionally until the end of time.  "Ah yes, the industry-leading modern avionics suite has a revolutionary new feature: you can cause the altitude to flash annoyingly at the press of a button."  Basic logic would tell you that's not a useful or reasonable thing for it to do, so why would you code it that way without investigating further?  I'm imagining an interaction the Carenado guys had with their real Hawker pilot when they saw the airplane in-person to do their research:

 

Carenado:  "FL Alert....what's that?"

Hawker pilot:  "Well, it makes altitude flash when th--hold on, I have to take this phone call."

Carenado:  "Ooh, I understand.  It makes the altitude flash!  That's what he said, guys!"

 

I guess Carenado's developers don't actually do flights in FS, because otherwise they'd surely know what working items one needs to carry out an IFR flight successfully.  Honestly, the Hawker was no better or worse than I expected.  It's truly rare when something in life lives up precisely to an expectation of mediocrity...no more, no less.  The model is amazing, and I think the VC is one of the best ever.  The Pro Line looks pretty good aesthetically, but functionally it's a joke.  It's heavily reliant on default autopilot functionality, but at least it works.......nope, I take that back....they broke that.  Out of the box, there was no systems functionality.  The good news is that most of the stuff that needs fixing is in the form of XML gauges that users may edit and, with enough tweaking over time, it could be made to be a decent add-on.  In a sense, I really enjoy the tweaking as a challenge.  It gives me exactly what I need out of this hobby...something to pass the afternoon meaningfully when I have too much free time at home.

 

Okay, so that's how I've made my peace with the quality issues.  Now...the absolutely vexing thing about Carenado is not their quality, lack of patches, or their overboard marketing claims, it's their unwillingness to interact with the community at all.  That genuinely upsets me.  They seldom reply to the contact email.  They respond to "support tickets" after a long delay and then only provide unhelpful answers.  You tell them that their autopilot never captures altitude, they come right back and tell you that a real pilot (whom they've clearly misunderstood) said that the autopilot doesn't capture altitude...so there, punk!  They only use their Facebook page to tout new releases and never interact with people there.  Carenado started this forum!  It was their official support forum!  But they just couldn't stand to play along for more than a few months before they abandoned it.

 

I used to fly the Phenom 100 and various Citations in real life, so after seeing the S550/Hawker debacle I reached out to Carenado a couple weeks ago to ask if they had any technical questions about the CJ2 or the Phenom 300.  I wanted to give them the benefit of the doubt.  "Oh, they just don't have the technical knowledge.  Oh, they're Spanish-speakers from Chile, maybe they have trouble understanding dense manuals in English."  I thought it would be an opening to get to know these guys and see what they're really all about, and maybe help them change their rep a little bit.  Well, I got a somewhat terse reply the next day from Andres asking for performance charts for the CJ2.  Sure!  I happened to have all the tabulated charts from the AFM in PDF form, so I sent them along the same day...and never heard from him again, not even a "thank you."  Ahh, there's the Carenado we all know.  :Raised Eyebrow:

[Bert Pieke 7,584]

Well written,  and unfortunately,  my experience as well.  :unsure:

 

These planes could be improved (a lot )  if the Carenado team had the desire to do so..

 

I have also provided input to the development team,  with little result.

[pilottj 198]

Carenado makes what they make, it's as simple as that.  We have a WIDE variety of addon developers making a WIDE variety of addon complexity.  If you don't like what Carenado makes, don't participate with your wallet.  

 

There has to be a balance of addon complexity, if all addons were like Carenado, this hobby would be dead, if all addons were like A2A/PMDG, likewise, this hobby would be dead.  I am as big a A2A/RealAir 'fanb*y'' as they come, but I have nothing against Carendo, they make lots of people happy, in fact I quite enjoyed some of their addons.   For the unhappy people, well, you did that to yourself.  Its not like Carenado is some rookie developer doing their first project.  They have done a whole bunch of projects by now and you've had plenty of time to gauge if their style is right for you.  The OP is right, perhaps people have set their expectations too high by comparing to other devs.  

 

Are their prices too high?  Perhaps, but that's just the way things are.  Wait for another developer to make something to suit your needs, in the meantime fly something you like.  Thats the beauty of having choices.  

 

Maybe we are too spoiled, expecting A2A/PMDG quality releases more quickly than they can be released.  I mean if you own a Cherokee in real life, you are likely going to own/operate it for a much longer time than it takes for A2A to develop/release their next project.  This is very true with aircraft insurance rates lol.  I mean if we are all pretending to be realistic here, you don't just buy a twin after 6 months of building Cherokee time and expect aircraft insurer to give you a reasonable rate for a twin or even a HP single..as if aircraft insurance rates were reasonable LOL.  

 

Personally, I like the A2A Accusim releases because those are the kind of planes I was trained to fly in, so I can fly them within reasonable realism and keep those expensive learned skillsets, but when I fly a PMDG airliner, because I have no idea how to fly one realistically.  I fly them completely unrealistically like a total newbie, and I don't care, I have fun.  

 

Lets face it, flight sim is a fantasy world for everyone, from casual simmer to 5000hr ATP.  Ultimately It really is no different than other fantasy worlds like Sims, Warcraft, SecondLife, MMORPGS..etc.  It is an open fantasy world, so you can make it as realistic or unrealsitic as you want.  (For example, A $20K piece of avionics in a $30K Cherokee is a fantasy for most real world Cherokee owners LOL)  No one should judge you on how you like to have your flightsim fun.  Fly a Carenado unrealistically if you like, or fly a PMDG to ATP standards, if it makes you happy, thats awesome.  

 

If it bothers you what other people enjoy, just remember, when you point a finger, there are three pointing back at you.  It's a lyric from an old blues song, but its a good one to live by lol. 

 

Cheers

TJ

[PaulGR 168]

^^I can't fly and have fun with a buggy product. I want it to work at least to minimum standards as anything below is just being ripped off.

[Jim Robinson 122]

"Ah yes, the industry-leading modern avionics suite has a revolutionary new feature: you can cause the altitude to flash annoyingly at the press of a button."

 

Thought I was gonna bust a gut!

[pilottj 198]

^^I can't fly and have fun with a buggy product. I want it to work at least to minimum standards as anything below is just being ripped off.

 

But you did chose to buy it.  Carenado's style is no secret, there are thousands of threads and reviews threads on their previous releases.  All those threads and reviews are pretty consistent and should give one a good idea of what to expect.  

 

We've all gotten something from one or two developers or another and thought we got screwed, so we stopped buying from them until reviews indicated they changed.

 

Yeah it sucks to get burned, but oh well, you are out 30-40 bucks...that is what? a case or two of beer right?    Its not like you lost a car or house payment or something lol.  

 

My personal standards for this developer for me are clear, either they spend another month or two researching and betatesting their release, or make an eye candy plane that has a minibar and nice looking hostess mixing me drinks .   But if other people enjoy their releases as they are, more power to them.  There are lots of fish in the sea in our hobby, considering the time and effort it takes to produce FS addons, more so than most other virtual hobbies, we should be so lucky.

 

Cheers

TJ

[PaulGR 168]

But you did chose to buy it.  Carenado's style is no secret, there are thousands of threads and reviews threads on their previous releases.  All those threads and reviews are pretty consistent and should give one a good idea of what to expect.  

 

We've all gotten something from one or two developers or another and thought we got screwed, so we stopped buying from them until reviews indicated they changed.

 

Yeah it sucks to get burned, but oh well, you are out 30-40 bucks...that is what? a case or two of beer right?    Its not like you lost a car or house payment or something lol.  

 

My standards for this developer for me are clear, either they spend another month or two researching and betatesting their release, or make an eye candy plane that has a minibar and nice looking hostess mixing me drinks .   But if other people enjoy their releases as they are, more power to them.  There are lots of fish in the sea in our hobby, considering the time and effort it takes to produce FS addons, more so than most other virtual hobbies, we should be so lucky.

 

Cheers

TJ

 

Well I only bought it because Bert did the GTN mod. I really like it now, problem is the price went up to $100  

I know GTN can be (and will be) used in other planes as well but still

 

Generally If not the absolutely horrendous textures I would be happy with the plane  but what they did to symmetry of the model goes beyond any crap I have every seen and I'm in 3D for the past 20 years or so. 

[pilottj 198]

Well I only bought it because Bert did the GTN mod. I really like it now, problem is the price went up to $100  

I know GTN can be (and will be) used in other planes as well but still

 

Generally If not the absolutely horrendous textures I would be happy with the plane  but what they did to symmetry of the model goes beyond any crap I have every seen and I'm in 3D for the past 20 years or so. 

 

The good news is the $50 GTN is compatible with a growing number of addons, so it should pay off eventually for you. :smile: