Are expectations of Carenado too high for this community?

[el_kab0ng 29]

I need to preface this post by saying that I do agree for $50+, you should be getting PMDG level systems modeling, but it always amuses me why people are surprised when Carenado doesn't deliver this sort of fidelity. In their history, they have NEVER delivered PMDG quality systems modeling (and never claimed they will) and always focus primarily on the following:

 

1. Can it be flown reasonably well?

2. Does it look good in the air?

 

In all cases, the answers are yes. Does every button do something and are systems modeling (such as it is) perfect? Definitely not. Can I get the engines started and fly from one airport to the other without spending hours reading manuals? Sure. If I wanted anything more, I'd simply buy and fly PMDG aircraft, but that's not what I'm into this for.

 

After spending some time in both the Citation and the Hawker, each bird has some nuances that are obviously unrealistic, but once these are understood and worked around, flying them is enjoyable. The community has been EXCELLENT in filling the gap between what's needed and what Carenado won't fix on their own. It demonstrates a passion for these aircraft that continues to amaze me and for that, I have always been truly appreciative.

 

I just want to make sure everyone is setting the proper expectations when it comes to Carenado so that feelings are less offended when they receive an out-of-the-gate buggy product. It's a journey we all take with almost every AC they make, so there shouldn't be any surprises by now.

 

Thoughts?

 

[Phillip Gallagher 101]

Carenado has devastated me with their latest releases.  I can barely get out of bed in the morning.

[Bert Pieke 6,815]

I have the same symptoms, I just did not know the cause... :unsure:

 

..and in response to the original post, there is a very fine line between "lite" and "buggy" in my opinion.  Lite is OK and what I would expect after SP2,  but buggy is not really acceptable..

[~Craig~ 10]

The price increases have been quite recent, so I think people are entitled to have 'expected' more, for that extra $$, than they've actually gotten.

 

But people time and again fail to vote with their wallets.  (I've been guilty of that too in the past).    If you spend what you consider to be a premium price and find the product disappointing, then there is no logical reason to repeat that with the next (similarly priced, similar type, aircraft).

 

I learned my lesson with the Citation (and it's dreadful "FMC" expansion pack), so enough was enough and I never took the bait for the Hawker.   As soon as I saw early reports of the usual bugs; unreliable autopilots, poor APPR mode performance, features that appear to have been misunderstood by Carenado, etc, I knew I'd made the right decision; for me, at least.

 

I will buy their Navajo, because I know exactly what to expect from a twin-engined piston GA aircraft from Carenado (still some bugs but a broadly acceptable experience) but I will never buy another 'complex' aircraft or jet from them again.    

 

Even with their GA aircraft, where they tried to take on systems complexity, things went wrong (I'm thinking autothrottles being employed on the SR-22 here, to manage 'speed').

Steam gauge, GA from Carenado, and I'm in,  That's about it.

@Bert raises a very good point - people talk about "you shouldn't expect systems accuracy from Carenado", but systems accuracy (or lack of) is not the problem - bugs with what is provided, is the problem.

 

========================

A typical day in the Carenado HQ:

"Okay, I've just finished the last gauge on our latest, product, it's finished!"

"Cool, shall we do the testing"

"Yes, let's test the sales server....."

:smile:
 

[Jimmy RFR 406]

I have no trouble at all buying a 'lite' aircraft simulation, indeed I own a ton of 'em.

 

However, the recent releases from Carenado have been expensive compared to their competition (of lite addons), while disguising themselves as more than just a lite simulation.  I don't always care about the perfect replication of the complex bits, but for the price paid, I'm not going to be happy in having to wait for community led solutions for very obvious bugs.

 

That only happens a couple of times (hopefully) and then I learn my lesson (hopefully) and avoid their releases more often than not.

[Gregg_Seipp 558]

To me, I have quite a few excellent airplanes now and I'm content with them. They work very well, I know them really well. So, for me, I want airplanes that are like those: fairly decently complete, really nice FDE and really good visuals. Some of them are Carenado. But these new airplanes are not like the ones I own and I'd have more fun not flying them. So, I'm not even their customer for these new airplanes. Funny thing is, I'm okay with it. Go ahead and make them and sell them. Nothing wrong with it at all. I know they're not for me...they're for somebody else.

[WarpD 819]

For me I purchased the Hawker in hopes it would be a visually attractive aircraft model with at the least an avionics/systems set up that was on par with the default aircraft. The price was high for their known abilities, but I still wanted the business jet.

 

I feel that the visual quality of the VC isn't on par with other Carenado offerings, and that surprised me. As for the rest, if the core, base autopilot behavior that is defined by FSX itself isn't functioning in their code... then it boggles my mind as to what on earth their intent was. They didn't actually do a Pro Line 21, they didn't do the FMS justice at all (though I expected that TBH)... and the autopilot makes absolutely zero sense in their approach to making it function.

 

In short, even for Carenado... in my opinion as a customer... they fell short. I own several of their aircraft and have always liked the visual models.

 

Also... someone has accused me of being a competitor with Carenado. To that individual... and you know whom you izzz... please point out one single real world commercial training product Carenado has had certified by any government agency for use in flight training. That way I'll know what my competition is. :grin:

 

In short, I'm a customer... just like the rest of you and would appreciate being viewed as such.

[gizmosellsbunnys 106]

carenado planes the steam gauges just great for me no way going to read 600 page PMDG manual. I fly C172 carenado in Xplane and FSX it's my vfr plane of choice very forgiving to land and fly. Carenado ga planes modeling and phyiscs every long time simmer know they are not as accurate use A2A planes. Still, use carenado general aviation planes for basic eye candy cruise.

[zmak 331]

 I bought a few during a sale once as a newbie at a price approaching their real worth. Apart from those, Carenado do not exist in my Sim world but I do enjoy reading the new release threads, purely for entertainment purposes

[CB183183183 9]

The last Carenado plane I bought was the Cessna 182T and their G1000 simulation was awful on FPS and a total train wreck.  To this day, one of my favorite GA planes was their Cessna 210 for FS9.  I flew the pants off that thing and loved everything about it. Carenado has now ventured into complex aircraft, but they have programmers who don't have the coding skills to accurately model complex aircraft systems.  It blows my mind that they can't hire a good one with all the money they rake in from their sales.  I look at a company like Flysimware that doesn't have the best looking aircraft, but they make the effort to really program the systems in complex aircraft the way they should be.

 

There are two things that really set back Carenado:

 

1. Poor understanding of systems simulations of complex aircraft

2. Poor customer service support

 

These are areas that the best developers out there really have down well.  It's obvious from looking at Carenado's upcoming projects that they are more concerned about quantity over quality.   Folks know that to really put out a top notch FS aircraft requires hundreds of hours of coding and lots of beta testing to get it right. That's why I never complain about companies like Aerosoft, A2A, Majestic, PMDG, and Real Air taking a while to release a product.  Because I know when it does come out, it's going to be a high quality simulation that works well out of the box with few major bugs to overcome.  

[PaulGR 168]

After what they did to the textures (UV mapping) of the Hawker I'm not giving them a single $ more till they change their attitude towards people that put bread on their table.

[MartinRex007 388]

Our community has beginners to advanced users including many pilots, myself included. I think to get folks interested in simming and aviation in general you need a developer like Carenado that offers a simple easy to fly aircraft. If only the more advanced aircraft like A2A was available I'm not sure beginners would stick with it. I have a number of Carenado aircraft and I enjoy them for what they are, but I fly the more advanced models from other developers most of the time, but I do think Carenado fills an important segment in our flight simming market. It's all a matter of expectations!

 

Cheers

Martin

[klamal 279]

Our community has beginners to advanced users including many pilots, myself included. I think to get folks interested in simming and aviation in general you need a developer like Carenado that offers a simple easy to fly aircraft. If only the more advanced aircraft like A2A was available I'm not sure beginners would stick with it. I have a number of Carenado aircraft and I enjoy them for what they are, but I fly the more advanced models from other developers most of the time, but I do think Carenado fills an important segment in our flight simming market. It's all a matter of expectations!

 

 

 

Cheers

Martin

They do have a place. The big problem, in my opinion, is that they charge nearly as much as these high quality aircraft. I'd buy the hawker right now if it wasn't for this simple fact. If they would sell these for what they are really worth - like $20 or so. That's a much more fair price point for what you're getting. I just bought the A2A Comanche for the same price(or was it even cheaper? Can't remember now) and got a much, much, much more quality aircraft than what these guys can even dream of creating apparently.

 

So, I agree. There needs to be simple aircraft for those of us that are just starting out or don't care to have pmdg level systems. But they need to charge

'Simple' prices too! When I pay $50 for an aircraft, it better be at least as good as aerosoft Airbus if not close to something from A2A or majestic. Care ado comes nowhere close but yet still sell at this price point. I don't get it!?!?

[kdfw__ 383]

my rules on carenado:

1) only buy during xmas sale season, never sticker price.  wait 6 months or a year, no problem.

2) steam gauge a/c, and only if support 3rd party realistic gps (rxp, f1 gtn).

3) tempted by nice looking model of recent jets but forum melodrama enough of a red flag to avoid 

4) if Bert likes it, seriously consider getting it (when rule #1 is satisfied)

simple.  

[AviatorMoser 352]

I don't think expectations are high but the market price for their addons seems a bit steep. But people keep buying them, so the market price remains high. There's no reason to cut prices if you're satisfied with sales.