Scott said" I do use slight curves with both, but that's largely to compensate for the tendency of the Saitek to be a bit sticky around the neutral point leading to a bit of over-controlling near neutral.

 

 I think that is an important point -- that the use of "curves" or other types of tweaking (including tweaking an aircraft.cfg file parameter) may sometimes have more to do with compensating for controller deficiencies than a/c simulation deficiencies (perhaps without the user realizing that is the case). And the flight characteristics of a particular a/c may accentuate certain controller deficiencies more than other a/c.

 

Al

 

 

I think that is an important point -- that the use of "curves" or other types of tweaking (including tweaking an aircraft.cfg file parameter) may sometimes have more to do with compensating for controller deficiencies than a/c simulation deficiencies (perhaps without the user realizing that is the case). And the flight characteristics of a particular a/c may accentuate certain controller deficiencies more than other a/c.

 

And I believe this is fundamentally Scott's (A2A) point as well.  The Saitek, especially without mods, is tough to get moving, and for me a gentle curve helps mitigate the bit of over control that can result.  Note that I use this same curve on almost every aircraft I own, so in my case I see no more need to "correct" A2A than I do most other vendors' planes.  [i do use a more aggressive curve to correct one particular plane that I do believe has an overly touchy rudder because I believe that even in this case, modding things like elevator_effectiveness can lead to unintended consequences, like not have enough elevator in some circumstances.  It's just too big of a sledgehammer.]

 

Scott

I am not familiar with the 172 in real life... but why is full flaps and 50 knots too fast and floating when I level the airplane approaching the runway?

I am not familiar with the 172 in real life... but why is full flaps and 50 knots too fast and floating when I level the airplane approaching the runway?

 

A 172's Vso is 33 knots. 

 

At 50 knots, you are way above that. The plane still has way too much lift at that speed to not balloon in ground effect. 

Oops I had those numbers all wrong. Thanks

Oops I had those numbers all wrong. Thanks

 

Vso x 1.3 is a typical final approach speed. 

 

Use Vs0 x 1.2 for your short final. 

 

If you are stabilized on those numbers, you should be able to cut the power over the fence and settle onto the runway nicely in just about any small GA plane. If you are flying something that doesn't glide well, then a touch of power until the flare is fine. But in a 172, Cherokee, or Comanche, get the power out at least by the threshold if not sooner depending on your descent angle.

BTW.. a really nice repaint out

 

http://a2asimulations.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=124&t=47838

I got that repaint Bert and I love it 

In some of Tim's shots that plane looks so Mooney hehe

 

Awesome paint which probably means I'll buy it soon.

A 172's Vso is 33 knots.

 

At 50 knots, you are way above that. The plane still has way too much lift at that speed to not balloon in ground effect.

 

I wonder where you have the 33 knots from. The airspeed indicator seems a bit too optimistic. The several documents I have specify stall speeds slightly below 50 knots; the A2A 172 aircraft.cfg says 48 knots (full flaps). With short final speed of 40 knots you would fly risky, maybe except you are alone in the plane and the tanks are almost empty. I would rather recommend a final approach speed of around 55 knots, of course depending on the current weight.

 

BTW, this is a thread about the PA24 Comanche ....

I wonder where you have the 33 knots from. The several documents I have specify stall speeds slightly below 50 knots; the A2A 172 aircraft.cfg says 48 knots (full flaps). With short final speed of 40 knots you would fly risky, maybe except you are alone in the plane and the tanks are almost empty. I would rather recommend a final approach speed of around 55 knots, of course depending on the current weight.

 

BTW, this is a thread about the PA24 Comanche ....

 

33 knots was erroneous. That's a C-152. 

 

48 knots is Vsi for a 172. That means stall in a clean configuration. I know 40 knots is Vso (I asked a guy who flies them at my field, M/N/SP models), which sounds right. No 172 stalls in the landing configuration at 50 knots. That'd be higher then my Cherokee, which has a Vso of 46 knots.

 

Keep in mind that Vso and Vsi are based on being at max gross weight, so if you are light, you are going to have to take that into account for your flare.

 

If you come in over the runway and try to flare at 50-60 knots in a 172, as that poster said, you are going to balloon like crazy. 10 knots over stall is a ton to burn off in a flare. 

 

55 knots is fine for approach in a 172, but you need to be dropping below 50 knots and power out over the threshold, and don't flare until it starts to get mushy around 40 knots. That'll stop the ballooning.

 

BTW, if you read the thread you'd understand why we were discussing the 172 V speeds. There was a discussion about the Comanche porpoising and someone noted the 172 does that if they flare at 50-60 knots. So we were discussing that it is not unrealistic for that to happen.

In the A2A Cherokee, with say a load of only 2 people up front, it actually doesn't stall, power off, full flaps, until about 45 mph. All the numbers in the manual are for MGW, which says Vso is 57 mph. Even if you approach at 65 mph, it takes a relatively long time to bleed off that speed from the time you cross the threshold. The longer it takes somebody to bleed off that speed during the flare, the more likely they are to balloon it. I think it's a lot easier to get a nice, picture perfect landing when the plane is near MGW. The kind of landing where the stall light comes on just at the moment when the tires are chirping onto the runway. Yeah, I know this topic is about the Comanche.

In the A2A Cherokee, with say a load of only 2 people up front, it actually doesn't stall, power off, full flaps, until about 45 mph. All the numbers in the manual are for MGW, which says Vso is 57 mph. Even if you approach at 65 mph, it takes a relatively long time to bleed off that speed from the time you cross the threshold. The longer it takes somebody to bleed off that speed during the flare, the more likely they are to balloon it. I think it's a lot easier to get a nice, picture perfect landing when the plane is near MGW. The kind of landing where the stall light comes on just at the moment when the tires are chirping onto the runway.

 

Yeah, Vso is always at MGW. If you are well under it, you just need to delay your flare a touch more until things get mushy.

 

The Cherokee is so easy to land in real life. I did all my training in a PA-28-140. I felt sorry for the guys learning in 172s who seemed to have much more trouble with their speed and flares.

 

I think the thing that's screwing up people with the Comanche is that they are trying to flare while still in the green arc. The Cherokee is much more forgiving of this (in the sim and in real life).

 

I'm not sure what number A2A used, but a real 250 Comanche stalls at about 63mph at MGW in the landing config. That's well below the green arc. So if simmers have two people on board and they try to flare at 70-75 mph (on the edge of the green arc), it's no wonder people are ballooning.

In some of Tim's shots that plane looks so Mooney hehe

 

Awesome paint which probably means I'll buy it soon.

 

Fun fact...Al Mooney designed the Comanche, so it does share some looks and design features with a Mooney. 

 

To me they look like fat Mooneys with a straight tale. 

Do you carry any power with you to the ground in the Comanche (or for that matter in the Cherokee)?

Do you carry any power with you to the ground in the Comanche (or for that matter in the Cherokee)?

 

In real life, I don't carry power to the ground in a Cherokee. In the PA-28-140, I'm power off well before the threshold. In the PA-28-161 (or the 151 I've flown), I carry a touch of power until over the threshold usually. But it all depends on how steep my approach ends up being.

 

In the sim, I go power out pretty early in the Comanche. I find it is hard enough to bleed off speed as it is.

 

The hardest thing about landing in the sim is not being able to feel the elevator and trim pressures. When I'm flaring in real life, it's all about feel. I'm not even looking at the airspeed indicator at that point.