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Skywolf

VR is the thing you want - Monitors is so last century

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Wireless VR would be fantastic however enormous bandwidth would be required for 4K per eye (which is where I hope VR is heading).

Not to mention the enormous CPU/GPU processing power which would be needed! Full-HD per eye would be a big improvement over the current generation of VR devices but I think that even that would be beyond many current systems.


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This is why I said in my original post "That 4K is on the horizon" and why I am not rushing out to buy now.


 

Paul. I completely understand your concerns.  And they are understandable within the FS community. But for many the educational and learning aspect is projected fine in VR. It's only the beginning and early adopters are the one who drive the tech., forward.

Just the feeling of being their (in the cockpit!) for me is a game changer. Some of the other apps I have , many of which do not require the horsepower we need, are excellent. The only problem I have is getting the damn thing away from the kids. Gonna have to buy em their own.  If you have kids do NOT show your VR rig to em!

Merry Xmas.

BaldyB

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For me... with VR, the resolution just isn't there yet.

 

3D effects = awesome

 

Tracking = flawless

 

Resolution = not ready for prime time.

 

 

I much prefer all my sim hardware, 4k screen and TrackIR for the time being.

 

I don't foresee Virtual Reality changing my dreams of a Virtual Cockpit when it comes to flight simming. 

 

Resolutions will also have to significantly improve before I'll revisit VR.  


Floyd Stolle

www.stollco.com

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For me... with VR, the resolution just isn't there yet.

 

3D effects = awesome

 

Tracking = flawless

 

Resolution = not ready for prime time.

 

 

I much prefer all my sim hardware, 4k screen and TrackIR for the time being.

 

I don't foresee Virtual Reality changing my dreams of a Virtual Cockpit when it comes to flight simming. 

 

Resolutions will also have to significantly improve before I'll revisit VR.  

 

 

I have been thinking a lot lately about using a VR setup (mainly because of all of the attention it has been getting lately), but I'm really scared of putting those goggles on and being really disappointed with the resolution.  If the resolution is bad, it will cause sickness and headaches.

I stopped at an ATT store and tried on a pair of the VR goggles that they had displayed and it seemed to be very pixilated and poor in quality.  It's a big expense to lay out for something that is not usable.

 

Bob

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I have been thinking a lot lately about using a VR setup (mainly because of all of the attention it has been getting lately), but I'm really scared of putting those goggles on and being really disappointed with the resolution.  If the resolution is bad, it will cause sickness and headaches.

I stopped at an ATT store and tried on a pair of the VR goggles that they had displayed and it seemed to be very pixilated and poor in quality.  It's a big expense to lay out for something that is not usable.

 

Bob

 

I was lucky ;) My son bought himself an Oculus. In P3D, I could barely read the primary avionics, the gauges ect. were completely unreadable. The experience in itself was pretty cool. The 3D was awesome, but graphically, scenery etc. looked like crap. IMHO a quality yoke, rudder pedal and things like a good MCP do much more for immersion than VR.


Floyd Stolle

www.stollco.com

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I was lucky ;) My son bought himself an Oculus. In P3D, I could barely read the primary avionics, the gauges ect. were completely unreadable. The experience in itself was pretty cool. The 3D was awesome, but graphically, scenery etc. looked like crap. IMHO a quality yoke, rudder pedal and things like a good MCP do much more for immersion than VR.

 

 

The main reason things are unreadable is the "Screen Door" effect which is very distracting and annoying for me also.

 

Hopefully when resolutions improve and with better lenses this effect will go away and we can enjoy highly immersive VR.

 

The potential is enormous since cockpits do look incredible in VR (just like being there) however let down in quality by this effect.

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Screen door is going to be most noticeable on the cheaper headsets made for phones. Less noticeable on the Oculus and Vive, and less noticeable still when you use supersampling.

 

Games not made with this in mind will fare the worst, with barely legible cockpit instruments in something like P3D/FSX, and a noticeable jump in quality in something like Aerofly FS2, where the instruments are quite clear at the 2.0 supersampling setting.

 

Unfortunately, the computers with the power to handle that sort of graphical load are still few and far between. I always link this video to explain the problem.

 

I put together my new system recently specifically with VR in mind.

 


We are all connected..... To each other, biologically...... To the Earth, chemically...... To the rest of the Universe atomically.
 
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Screen door is going to be most noticeable on the cheaper headsets made for phones. Less noticeable on the Oculus and Vive, and less noticeable still when you use supersampling.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I had an Oculus and just sold it. Screen door effect was very noticeable (even with supersampling)

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I had an Oculus and just sold it. Screen door effect was very noticeable (even with supersampling)

 

I guess it depends on expectations and tolerance at that point, but things have already gotten a lot better.....

 


We are all connected..... To each other, biologically...... To the Earth, chemically...... To the rest of the Universe atomically.
 
Devons rig
Intel Core i5 13600K @ 5.1GHz / G.SKILL Trident Z5 RGB Series Ram 32GB / GIGABYTE GeForce RTX 4070 Ti GAMING OC 12G Graphics Card / Sound Blaster Z / Meta Quest 2 VR Headset / Klipsch® Promedia 2.1 Computer Speakers / ASUS ROG SWIFT PG279Q ‑ 27" IPS LED Monitor ‑ QHD / 1x Samsung SSD 850 EVO 500GB / 2x Samsung SSD 860 EVO 1TB /  1x Samsung - 970 EVO Plus 2TB NVMe /  1x Samsung 980 NVMe 1TB / 2 other regular hd's with up to 10 terabyte capacity / Windows 11 Pro 64-bit / Gigabyte Z790 Aorus Elite AX Motherboard LGA 1700 DDR5

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I was lucky ;) My son bought himself an Oculus. In P3D, I could barely read the primary avionics, the gauges ect. were completely unreadable. The experience in itself was pretty cool. The 3D was awesome, but graphically, scenery etc. looked like crap. IMHO a quality yoke, rudder pedal and things like a good MCP do much more for immersion than VR.

 

 

Thank you Floyd!  That's what I really wanted to confirm.  This technology is new and really needs to grow for a couple of years before I plunge into it.  

Some people may feel that they will continue to buy the latest release of VR hardware, but I like to keep what I have for a few years, so I will wait until I hear it has improved in the rendering department.

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I also returned my Oculus Rift. I got excited by the immersion factor which is amazing. People in another thread may remember my posts. You really are inside the cockpit, and what I wrote I still believe. There is no comparison in simulating 3D space. Though after some flights, I found out what I was now losing from my 2D setup. Problems started to become obvious:

Textures - Resolution
My well paid add-ons textures was not worth their value anymore. That includes textures for aircraft, clouds, terrain, airports etc...Then it was the aircraft displays. I had to physically move continuously by leaning to read the screens. Which was immersive in a way cause you feel the space..but is also like you have forgotten your prescription glasses :) Using the zoom was as immersion lost as the 2D preset views all of us use, but at least you can still the MFDs in 2D without zooming. Finding the runway in a the distance was not as easy as I initially thought. Head tracking is excellent and your head can look 360 degrees (that's a huge plus) but due to the screen door effect you can't make out details.  The small footprint of the runway in the distance was lost somewhere in the pixels and I had to guess if this is a runway or a white toned field..In cloudy conditions that is even more difficult.

Flight management
The implementation of FI by using imported windows while works for others, for me was not possible, as I had some clicking problems. The mouse was not responsive at all. And when you need to find a map you don't wanna pause or take off the googles. But this could be a setting problem cause I know others use this function fine. For me, having the maps in my ipad is faster.

Compatibility
The biggest hit along with the resolution was the fact that I could not use the Majestic Q400. There is a bug with FI that has to be fixed..and it will I'm sure. But when? I couldn't stand that I had to check the forums 10 times a day and wish someone to fix it. I had also purchased Leap Motion which didn't work with my payware airplanes the way I thought it would.

 

Performance

Recently upgraded to a 6700K system a month ago and VR was not giving me the same performance with my heavy add-on aircrafts. This could translate to some stutters especially in translation head motion sometimes but also fluidity. An added benefit is that you could lower LOD way down cause you couldn't see any details in the distance either way (good for VAS). On my 2D setup I have fluid 30fps most of the time.

 

 

Conclusion

I don't want to be negative. I like VR and I certainly believe that it is the future. Also the 3d modeling is something appreciated only in VR to 100%. You feel the real dimension of everything. From the cockpit to the Jetway to the terminal, the taxiways...etc. Maybe in a year, or more. It needs to go to 4K per eye certainly. This will need better hardware. 

 

For now, I'm moving to a 34' ultrawide that should make things satisfactory. I ended up concluding that in 2D you don't have the immersion of being there, but you have the immersion of monitoring the flight as fast as the real pilot, and this is paramount on IFR. Losing time by zooming, leaning and moving windows does not work in a fast moving IFR ATC environment, at least for me.


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For me it depends on my mood: on some days I want the clarity of the flat screen, and on others I want the immersion and presence of 3D. 

 

For me, there's no reason both experiences couldn't/cant exist side by side, and should hardware improve, I have more than enough kids in the family that would be ecstatic to receive my old(er) hardware.

 

Besides, I always remember my moms words about life not being promised, and my Cats nefarious scheme to kill me on the stairs might succeed at any time, if I don't get him first.

 

Waiting for perfection becomes meaningless once the cats killed you.  Raised%20Eyebrow.gif


We are all connected..... To each other, biologically...... To the Earth, chemically...... To the rest of the Universe atomically.
 
Devons rig
Intel Core i5 13600K @ 5.1GHz / G.SKILL Trident Z5 RGB Series Ram 32GB / GIGABYTE GeForce RTX 4070 Ti GAMING OC 12G Graphics Card / Sound Blaster Z / Meta Quest 2 VR Headset / Klipsch® Promedia 2.1 Computer Speakers / ASUS ROG SWIFT PG279Q ‑ 27" IPS LED Monitor ‑ QHD / 1x Samsung SSD 850 EVO 500GB / 2x Samsung SSD 860 EVO 1TB /  1x Samsung - 970 EVO Plus 2TB NVMe /  1x Samsung 980 NVMe 1TB / 2 other regular hd's with up to 10 terabyte capacity / Windows 11 Pro 64-bit / Gigabyte Z790 Aorus Elite AX Motherboard LGA 1700 DDR5

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I had an Oculus and just sold it. Screen door effect was very noticeable (even with supersampling)

 

I can only guess what the screen door effect is, I have not seen it for some reason.  I agree the mouse action is a little erratic at times. I still find the mouse usable enough, I managed to improve it's stability a lot, and it's size. It was too big for my taste. One thing I need to do is to go into FSX's .CFG file and adjust my position within the aircraft. I read that you have to do this with each new Aircraft after it's installation to have a permanent fix for that particular bird.  Flyinsides developer is working on these problems. I've been tweaking FS.s since Sub Logic and even wrote a few of my own sqigily line that I thought represented something. When our guy's went to the moon I wrote a little short app that showed the the big rocket taking off and going up to the moon then around a few times before ejecting the lander. The lander landed and in a few minutes it took off and chased the mother ship til it docked up with it. But I made a mistake and it docked with very loud bang and gave the space ship a kick in the a$$ like you read about.  The mother gained a great deal; of speed. The kids loved it. When fixed they loved it a lot less, kids??? The Amiga with Lattice C: was one good graphics machine!

I have the whole mess flyable right now. I am about to order the Leap Motion Controller, it looks pretty decent and it may help with the mouse use or not?

If or when I go to an outside view and back I keep finding myself moving lower and rearward ion the cockpit to a point that if i go in and out too much I end up the jump seat end eventually under  and behind the cockpit flying along in mid air.  You get a hell of a view at least, I know it isn't funny!

Merry Xmas

BaldyB 

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I also returned my Oculus Rift. I got excited by the immersion factor which is amazing. People in another thread may remember my posts. You really are inside the cockpit, and what I wrote I still believe. There is no comparison in simulating 3D space. Though after some flights, I found out what I was now losing from my 2D setup. Problems started to become obvious:

 

Textures - Resolution

My well paid add-ons textures was not worth their value anymore. That includes textures for aircraft, clouds, terrain, airports etc...Then it was the aircraft displays. I had to physically move continuously by leaning to read the screens. Which was immersive in a way cause you feel the space..but is also like you have forgotten your prescription glasses :) Using the zoom was as immersion lost as the 2D preset views all of us use, but at least you can still the MFDs in 2D without zooming. Finding the runway in a the distance was not as easy as I initially thought. Head tracking is excellent and your head can look 360 degrees (that's a huge plus) but due to the screen door effect you can't make out details.  The small footprint of the runway in the distance was lost somewhere in the pixels and I had to guess if this is a runway or a white toned field..In cloudy conditions that is even more difficult.

 

Flight management

The implementation of FI by using imported windows while works for others, for me was not possible, as I had some clicking problems. The mouse was not responsive at all. And when you need to find a map you don't wanna pause or take off the googles. But this could be a setting problem cause I know others use this function fine. For me, having the maps in my ipad is faster.

 

Compatibility

The biggest hit along with the resolution was the fact that I could not use the Majestic Q400. There is a bug with FI that has to be fixed..and it will I'm sure. But when? I couldn't stand that I had to check the forums 10 times a day and wish someone to fix it. I had also purchased Leap Motion which didn't work with my payware airplanes the way I thought it would.

 

Performance

Recently upgraded to a 6700K system a month ago and VR was not giving me the same performance with my heavy add-on aircrafts. This could translate to some stutters especially in translation head motion sometimes but also fluidity. An added benefit is that you could lower LOD way down cause you couldn't see any details in the distance either way (good for VAS). On my 2D setup I have fluid 30fps most of the time.

 

 

Conclusion

I don't want to be negative. I like VR and I certainly believe that it is the future. Also the 3d modeling is something appreciated only in VR to 100%. You feel the real dimension of everything. From the cockpit to the Jetway to the terminal, the taxiways...etc. Maybe in a year, or more. It needs to go to 4K per eye certainly. This will need better hardware. 

 

For now, I'm moving to a 34' ultrawide that should make things satisfactory. I ended up concluding that in 2D you don't have the immersion of being there, but you have the immersion of monitoring the flight as fast as the real pilot, and this is paramount on IFR. Losing time by zooming, leaning and moving windows does not work in a fast moving IFR ATC environment, at least for me.

 

I'd strongly recommend a TrackIR

 

It really adds to the immersion. Kind of a place in the middle of the 2D and the VR


Floyd Stolle

www.stollco.com

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I agree, until the VR hardware improves, a 4K monitor combined with TrackIR is a nice stopgap measure.

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