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Libra204

FSX aircraft designed "outside" FSX flight models

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Hello All

Merry Xmas first of all :)

 

I am wondering if you could recommend me some aircraft which are designed outside FSX flight model, I hope you know what I mean. FSX planes designed within the limits of FSX flight models always fly in a most predictable way, as though led on a lead or something. 

 

I know for a fact (becuase I have them) that Majestic Q400 and PT 154B-2 are external to FSX flight model, hence, they give you an entirely different experience to lets say Milviz or RazBam products.

 

So, if you happen to know other type, please do join in. Thanks :)

 

Csaba

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Merry Christmas Csaba, 

 

It's a good question and one i wish i were knowledgeable enough to answer. In any case, the first company that comes to mind is A2A Simulations and their Accu-Sim products. Hopefully, someone with more knowledge will soon chime in.

 

 

Les Parson

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TO my knowledge, the only aircraft designed using an external flight dynamics engine is the Majestic Dash 8 Q400.  It uses the flight dynamics engine created by NASA. I have most all payware aircraft for FSX/P3D, and the Dash 8 is is the only aircraft in desktop flight simulation I've ever flown that actually handles like a true aircraft.

 

One can also select the FSX engine, but I'm not sure why one would want to do that.

 

 

Best wishes!

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Hi guys,

Milviz t-38 advanced trainer has also the flight dynamics engine outside of FSX.

It flies like a one from DCS.

Best

Michael

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TO my knowledge, the only aircraft designed using an external flight dynamics engine is the Majestic Dash 8 Q400.  It uses the flight dynamics engine created by NASA. I have most all payware aircraft for FSX/P3D, and the Dash 8 is is the only aircraft in desktop flight simulation I've ever flown that actually handles like a true aircraft.

 

One can also select the FSX engine, but I'm not sure why one would want to do that.

 

 

Best wishes!

Hi Dave

 

thanks for your input. I also have the feeling that even a2a planes lack the real "flare" feeling as far as yoke movement and plane attitude are concerned. I mentioned Project Tupolev Tu154, which in my opinion behaves very mush like the Majestic Q400, albeit, it is less known in non-russian communities

 

Csaba

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FSL A320. It has even external ground friction model

 

Can you please double check that?  I know they have a different external animation model, but can you please double check the external Flight Dynamics Engine?

 

Just to be certain, the term "External" as used above means "does not use the ESP (FSX/P3D) Flight Dynamics Engine.

 

 

Best wishes!

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Can you please double check that?  I know they have a different external animation model, but can you please double check the external Flight Dynamics Engine?

 

Just to be certain, the term "External" as used above means "does not use the ESP (FSX/P3D) Flight Dynamics Engine.

 

 

Best wishes!

Dave, i know what it means, i've followed development of their A320 for the last 4 years :smile:  They have external engine, aerodynamics and ground modelling. The only problem with this aircraft is performance, probably becouse they are simulating too many things -  neural networks to simulate systems, electrical loads, on-board computers etc

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PMDG runs it's business outside of FSX also. See quote from Tabs below.

 

Need to correct some major misconceptions going on here:

 

1. Any FSX addon aircraft necessarily runs within the FSX.exe process. This is a requirement for FSX and for Windows applications in general. When we say we do things "outside FSX" what we mean is that we are not using default FSX SDK stuff for our avionics/systems, animations, and so on. FSX does not "know" about the presence of our FMC, the hydraulic or pneumatic system, the intricacies of the fuel system etc. For those of you who aren't versed in Windows programming - a dll *is* Windows's solution to this issue of not being able to run separate exes that modify another already running one. That's what our gauge dlls are - they contain custom "outside" code that latches onto the FSX.exe process.

 

And for the record - exactly the same is true for the Majestic Q400, which I assume is what several of you are going on about as being so different than anything else. They run the sim in an invisible kind of slew mode and their gauge dll code contains that open source FDE library that drives the slewing of the aircraft around the world. (I've addressed in a previous long post last year why this isn't something that works for our purposes) There is not a separate Q400.exe process that's running.

 

2. There is no such thing as coding something specifically to "use hyperthreading". HT is a hardware level thing on the CPU. Any multithreaded application will take advantage of HT - they're virtual cores that act just like normal ones and operate by leveraging idle cycles on the real physical cores. FSX (and essentially any video game) run the vast majority of their code in a single threaded manner. It often has to be this way because of the serialized nature of one event feeding another event in order and so on. It's very difficult to multithread video games - I can't find the link at the moment, but Valve Software (makers of Steam, the Half-Life, Portal and Left-4-Dead games etc) wrote a white paper years ago explaining how difficult and sometimes impossible this is to do. That company has billions of dollars and some of the best coders in the world - if they say this is extremely hard to do then it's probably the truth. I believe we do have a few multithreaded things in the code, but this is all handled by the FSX.exe process and by Windows - there's no way to specifically target HT-enabled CPUs.

 

 

 

3. This kind of statement is ridiculous and we're tired of it. Virtually everything in every one of our products going back to the original FS2002/FS9 737 runs in the "outside" manner described above in point 1. 11+ years ago we were doing this. Every single one of our airplanes is "FBW" in a software sense - we don't use the default FSX control system, it's all intercepted externally and processed to generate more realistic control characteristics etc. Vangelis calls it "fly by software" here internally. Just because we don't slap a fancy marketing name on it and run around advertising it as a revolutionary "new" feature doesn't mean we haven't been doing it forever.

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PMDG runs it's business outside of FSX also

 

I understand what Ryan wrote, and it's certainly correct. But he didn't state that he they use an external flight dynamics engine, in fact he said they don't.  His statment about slewing was technically correct, though I would not have used the term "slewing". It's more that the input from ESP was disabled, and replaced by the input of the EFDE.

 

The only point I made what that Majestic was the only aircraft I knew of that used uses an external flight model, and that it was the only aircraft I knew of that handled as a true aircraft (I've got some experience here). I'm bound by the NDAs of all the developers i work with not to say more.

 

I've just gone through FSL promotion material, and I'm not yet able to verify the use of an external flight dynamics engine, so I'll just go directly to the source.  By the way, I think I was pretty darned polite and non-confrontational in the way I asked for confirmation of this, and in return I get some "I know what it means" statement.  Man, that's really something, I thought this was a friendly, technical discussion were facts might come out - and I have a little background in this area for those who would like to check.  None of us, even those of us who work with various developers can't monitor every single product out there to a minute degree, which is why I asked.

 

Hopefully in the morning, we might all find cooler heads?

 

Best wishes to everyone!

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I am far removed from starting a fierce debate over this topic, so let me chime in a bit please.

 

My flight sim experience tells me that PMDG aircraft (i have MD 11 and JS4100) do not fly "outside" the FSX fligh model. In essence, they behave pretty much the same all other aicraft in this game. The only possible exception in the GA world is RealAir, sometimes I have the feeling that they are not entirely part of the FSX realm in terms of flight modeling.

 

I believe the flight modelling issue is most pronounced when flying at low speed, during landing. 99% of FSX addons are just unable to simulate what is actually happening during landing and flare, and almost all aircraft behave very weird at high AoA situations.

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By the way, I think I was pretty darned polite and non-confrontational in the way I asked for confirmation of this, and in return I get some "I know what it means" statement.  Man, that's really something, I thought this was a friendly, technical discussion were facts might come out - and I have a little background in this area for those who would like to check.  None of us, even those of us who work with various developers can't monitor every single product out there to a minute degree, which is why I asked.
 
Hopefully in the morning, we might all find cooler heads?

 

Sorry to hear you saw something confrontational / unfriendly in my above post. I don't have tehnical details on flight dynamic engine used by FSL. It's different from Majestic, which i use, and i followed development since they experimented with external FDE in FS9 days - one of the first versions of interface between JSBSim and FS9 was made available to public for testing purposes(not available anymore). 

 

With FSL A320, they don't give tehnical details, but there is a section "Engine and Aerodynamics External Modelling" in Introduction manual that comes with A320. I'm not sure i can share / quote what manual says, but basically - They are using external modeling for engines, aerodynamics and ground dynamics modelling. They also say - when you fly A320, engine and aerodynamics models run in separate threads continuously computing all necessary parameters. 

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Just to clarify some terminology, any .dll loaded by the simulator runs within the simulator's process space.

 

Any external system invoked by a separate .exe program, establishes its own process space running alongside but independently of the simulator.

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