Cruachan

VAS/Memory Leak/OOM issue - Request for info by LM.

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Hi,

Could it be that we will soon see a solution for the VAS/Memory Leak/OOM issue? Persistence may be reaping rewards over at the LM forums as interest is now being expressed by one if their representatives, Rob McCarthy.

http://www.prepar3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6312&t=124227

He is asking for more info to help narrow down the cause by reproducing the problem in-house. I know many believe most if not all NVIDIA drivers since 376.33 are implicated and Rob McCarthy has stated that LM have contacted NVIDIA.

Now I know many of you will be holding off in the belief that this will be resolved if/when 'Version 4' arrives. However, this does not help those of us who may prefer to stick with the current 32bit version for the foreseeable future. So, for those of you currently plagued by this problem, I would strongly suggest you take this window of opportunity by adding any relevant information you feel might be useful to the above thread. This could be your last chance.

Regards,

Mike

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Great if this can be solved once and for all.

For me, myself I have never had any OOM issues with P3D.. 

I really wonder why some cannot even reach the runway abd others can make detailed flights without any issues..

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The last post in that thread by marcon8122 shows the VAS leak quite clearly. And that was done with the most recent  version of P3d with no addons. How LM  can't be aware of this problem is hard to fathom. Or maybe they are preoccupied with more important  programming  issues. A few shingles fell off the 32 bit roof years ago. Now the whole roof is leaking.

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Funnily its mostly GTX 980 Ti users, like me, that have had this problem.

I now installed the newest driver and it seems like the leak is almost gone.

Here is my flight UUEE-EHAM from today in VAS numbers:

Spoiler

 

Start: 2996 MB

Takeoff: 3220 MB

T/C (19 Mins into the flight): 3136 MB

1 Hour: 3156 MB

2 Hours: 3235 MB

TOD (2,5 hours): 3370 MB

FL200: 3492 MB

20 Nm from the ILS: 3535 MB

5 Nm from the ILS: 3788 MB

Touchdown: 3929 MB and almost OOM

 

 

 

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40 minutes ago, Mitis said:

Funnily its mostly GTX 980 Ti users, like me, that have had this problem.

I now installed the newest driver and it seems like the leak is almost gone.

Here is my flight UUEE-EHAM from today in VAS numbers:

  Hide contents

 

Start: 2996 MB

Takeoff: 3220 MB

T/C (19 Mins into the flight): 3136 MB

1 Hour: 3156 MB

2 Hours: 3235 MB

TOD (2,5 hours): 3370 MB

FL200: 3492 MB

20 Nm from the ILS: 3535 MB

5 Nm from the ILS: 3788 MB

Touchdown: 3929 MB and almost OOM

 

 

 

Hi Wayne,

With respect, I'm not sure those figures would inspire me with much confidence of being able to fly that route to completion. Have you tried checking VAS used/remaining after loading EHAM using the same a/c and flight conditions immediately following a fresh run of P3D? 

Regards,

Mike

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4 hours ago, Cruachan said:

Hi Wayne,

With respect, I'm not sure those figures would inspire me with much confidence of being able to fly that route to completion. Have you tried checking VAS used/remaining after loading EHAM using the same a/c and flight conditions immediately following a fresh run of P3D? 

Regards,

Mike

Hi Mike

Loading up the PMDG 747 QOTS V3, ASN, FT AMS, FTX Global/vector/openlc EU gives me a VAS of around 3443 MB. So thats already quite bad but its to be expected with these addons.

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It's definitely the Nvidia driver - I have a GTX 1070 and if I roll back to 376.33 or earlier I do not see the constant loss of VAS in flight. We spent a couple days thinking the 747 was somehow responsible back when this started due to the complaints at support - it's reproducible with default aircraft even though and does not occur in FSX or FSX:SE with the newer drivers, only P3D. Problem now is that rolling back to those drivers isn't possible for people with newer cards like the 1080 Ti. Also not feasible for those of us who play other games that require at least the "game-ready" version for that specific new game.

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The issue is a driver issue and is mostly apparent on GTX 10 series cards.

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And now for something  completely  different. The Win 10 Creator's  update causes TrackIR to stop working. The only remedy at present is to update the nVidia  video driver. But wait, if I do that, I will get the VAS leak back again. So I blocked the Win 10 update until next week to see how this mess plays out.

Like I said above, 32 bit P3d is collapsing under its own weight.

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44 minutes ago, jabloomf1230 said:

Like I said above, 32 bit P3d is collapsing under its own weight.

I hesitate to say it but if only you guys had decided to stick with Windows7........

So far, nothing Windows 10 has to offer has any relevance to me. Windows7 Pro 64bit is fast and stable and Support continues until early 2020. It's user flexibility is IMHO unrivalled giving me full control over everything I do. Doubtless there will come a time when the change is forced upon me but, until then, really there is no clear imperative to jump ship.

My 'weighty' P3D installation is cruising along very nicely thank you, as is everything else (Aerofly FS2, X-Plane 11, Orbiter 2016, Elite: Dangerous/Horizons, X Rebirth, Witcher 3, Skyrim, Project Cars). Yes, I too have experienced the occasional OOM in P3D, but they are infrequent. If this could be fixed then, for me, that would be the last piece of the jigsaw and I will be more than happy.

Mike

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9 hours ago, Tabs said:

It's definitely the Nvidia driver - I have a GTX 1070 and if I roll back to 376.33 or earlier I do not see the constant loss of VAS in flight. We spent a couple days thinking the 747 was somehow responsible back when this started due to the complaints at support - it's reproducible with default aircraft even though and does not occur in FSX or FSX:SE with the newer drivers, only P3D. Problem now is that rolling back to those drivers isn't possible for people with newer cards like the 1080 Ti. Also not feasible for those of us who play other games that require at least the "game-ready" version for that specific new game.

Yea the issue isnt only with PMDG aircraft but with several other payware too. 

I hope that LM and Nvidia will find a solution to this, its the only thing that prevents me from enjoying P3D at the moment. I have great FPS, visuals but VAS is killing the fun really.

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9 hours ago, Tabs said:

It's definitely the Nvidia driver - I have a GTX 1070 and if I roll back to 376.33 or earlier I do not see the constant loss of VAS in flight. We spent a couple days thinking the 747 was somehow responsible back when this started due to the complaints at support - it's reproducible with default aircraft even though and does not occur in FSX or FSX:SE with the newer drivers, only P3D. Problem now is that rolling back to those drivers isn't possible for people with newer cards like the 1080 Ti. Also not feasible for those of us who play other games that require at least the "game-ready" version for that specific new game.

Are you sure it does not happen in FSX? I have FSX:SE and stayed on the 376.33 drivers because all the new drivers caused a VAS leak. I have held off on the latest Nvidia drivers just released (and a hotfix released the 14th)

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they will never admit to a problem.  Its commercial suicide.   Please dont think for one minute that a huge multinational company (a defense company) cares about anything other than profit. 

 

Ive had it last night on a EGGW to LDDU routing out over east coast towards brusells, at about 6000 feet the vas just sunk.  I thougt I solved by vas issues by removing orbx hd trees and fsrealtime.  After 10+ succesfull flights.  It reared its ugly head again last night. 

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If you are not urged to take the update path, this helps to avoid OOMs and other problems:

- stay with P3D 3.3.5 or earlier

- stay with Nvidia 376.33 driver

- if possible stay with Win 7/8 or be careful when Win10 makes its updates.

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7 hours ago, Cruachan said:

I hesitate to say it but if only you guys had decided to stick with Windows7........

So far, nothing Windows 10 has to offer has any relevance to me. Windows7 Pro 64bit is fast and stable and Support continues until early 2020. It's user flexibility is IMHO unrivalled giving me full control over everything I do. Doubtless there will come a time when the change is forced upon me but, until then, really there is no clear imperative to jump ship.

My 'weighty' P3D installation is cruising along very nicely thank you, as is everything else (Aerofly FS2, X-Plane 11, Orbiter 2016, Elite: Dangerous/Horizons, X Rebirth, Witcher 3, Skyrim, Project Cars). Yes, I too have experienced the occasional OOM in P3D, but they are infrequent. If this could be fixed then, for me, that would be the last piece of the jigsaw and I will be more than happy.

Mike

I understand your point, but this logic goes nowhere in the face of advancing technology and the requirement of simmers to have greater and greater realism.

The folks who remain with FS9 still today essentially have little choice. If they were given all the money they want in order to get the best PC, P3D, and all the add-ons they want, there is a 99.9% chance they would do it. But the fact is (NVidia driver or not), 32-bit flight sims today have no chance of continuing success no matter what LM tries, because flight simulation is driven by realism. Each new add-on increases realism and takes another bite out of VAS. This trend will never stop and this is why it is vital that 64-bit enter the scene.

We are flight simmers; let us not kid ourselves into thinking that "the old" is good enough - we all know it will never be good enough....32-bit is very old.    

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40 minutes ago, Cargostorm said:

If you are not urged to take the update path, this helps to avoid OOMs and other problems:

- stay with P3D 3.3.5 or earlier

- stay with Nvidia 376.33 driver

- if possible stay with Win 7/8 or be careful when Win10 makes its updates.

Such a short post and yet with so much value in it.

What you say couldn't be more true and I urge anyone with VAS issues to read and then re-read your post.

I'm positive this is most certainly the best way to avoid VAS issues until there's a "real" solution be it LM and/or Nvidia finding and addressing the actual culprit or a brand new 64-bit version of P3D where VAS no longer is a concern as long as you have enough memory in your machine.

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10 hours ago, Tabs said:

It's definitely the Nvidia driver - I have a GTX 1070 and if I roll back to 376.33 or earlier I do not see the constant loss of VAS in flight. We spent a couple days thinking the 747 was somehow responsible back when this started due to the complaints at support - it's reproducible with default aircraft even though and does not occur in FSX or FSX:SE with the newer drivers, only P3D. Problem now is that rolling back to those drivers isn't possible for people with newer cards like the 1080 Ti. Also not feasible for those of us who play other games that require at least the "game-ready" version for that specific new game.

+1

 

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It is nvidia driver. 376.33 works best on my 1060 oc strix card. I have the newest driver available, running a few new titles on Steam. And sometimes I can fly without vas issues, and sometime I can't reach top of climb without vas warning, so I put virtual flying aside for the past ten days.

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3 hours ago, pracines said:

I understand your point, but this logic goes nowhere in the face of advancing technology and the requirement of simmers to have greater and greater realism.

Hi Paul,

Indeed. However, that was not my point. There is nothing in the flight sim world these days, and for the foreseeable future, that technology such as currently exists in my hardware/software setup can't handle comfortably. In time that will change, of course,  but significant progression, such as you describe, is not likely to happen for several years. Meantime I remain content in the knowledge that, for me, Windows7 remains a hassle-free zone. I know I have a very stable 64bit operating system capable of handling every current 64bit application with aplomb and, I anticipate, the 64bit version of Prepar3D will be no different. The only potential fly in the ointment is DirectX 12. Whether LM use the opportunity to exploit any cutting edge features offered by this API remains to be seen. Even if they do, it remains unlikely that I would feel any pressure to upgrade in the short term.

As for the 'requirement of simmers to have greater and greater realism' it is hard to imagine how much more real it can be than I am seeing at present in my heavily modded P3D 32bit. I'm fairly sure that Virtual Reality will be the next significant step forward in which case good ol' Windows7 64bit has its sleeves rolled up and ready to join the party for at least as long as Developer support continues or until Microsoft pulls the plug in 2020.

I'm not trying to undermine your decision to 'upgrade' to Windows10 and, believe it or not, nor am I attempting to justify my decision to remain on Windows7. I keep reading posts from people who have become irritated and resentful of Microsoft's big brother tactics. They could have been spared all this unwelcome nonsense by holding off for a bit longer while noting that in reality Windows10 has very little that is new and needed by us simmers to survive comfortably in the digital world. Windows7 remains a powerful operating system in its own right, probably one of the best ever to come from Microsoft, and it still has much to offer before being finally laid to rest.

To get back on topic, OOM's are still happening whether you are on 64bit Windows10 or 7. In this equation the operating system is less relevant as it has more to do with VAS restrictions imposed by 32bit application environments.

You stated: "Each new add-on increases realism and takes another bite out of VAS. This trend will never stop and this is why it is vital that 64-bit enter the scene." While this is true, I can't help but feel that this is more an excuse for Software Developers to avoid having to make more efficient use of what they have rather than use the  64bit card as a convenient cover for sloppy programming techniques.

Finally, ask yourself whether changing to Windows10 has really made any significant difference to your simming or gaming experience?

Regards,

Mike

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17 minutes ago, Cruachan said:

Finally, ask yourself whether changing to Windows10 has made any significant difference to your simming or gaming experience?

I found an immediate and sustained 30-40% increase in fps under exact same system addons and settings... I'm loathe to attribute the increase to windows10 alone, but the fact remains that was the only change I made..

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Hi Kevin,

I agree, a fresh install of Windows7 might also have achieved the same outcome.

Regards,

Mike

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I have win 7 64 bit Nvidia GTX 970 4 GB, i7-6700 3.4 GHz, And the latest P3D OOM.. I have tried to tweak me out of it; but unsuccesfull   And tried the recommend older driver and it worked better.

After some updates, some programs, i cant remember which now, demanded never drivers. 

Its strange that Lockheed Martin don't have the skill to fix a computer programming issue.

The choices around FSX and P3D by the owners, are really peculiar.

 

Regards Jens

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No matter what, we are always going to be stuck with the same pesky 4Gb VAS. Once that is exceeded, that's all she wrote, OOM!

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39 minutes ago, specialist said:

 

No matter what, we are always going to be stuck with the same pesky 4Gb VAS. Once that is exceeded, that's all she wrote, OOM!

 

Hi Johnny,

In a way you are quite correct. However, it has been demonstrated beyond reasonable dispute that with specific graphic driver support it is perfectly possible to survive comfortably without ever seeing an OOM message. 

That's the intention behind this thread - to help LM convey any relevant information to NVIDIA which would help them reproduce the error in-house, isolate the cause and find a remedy for this vexatious problem. They are asking for our input. We have a window of opportunity.

Regards,

Mike

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13 hours ago, Cruachan said:

To get back on topic, OOM's are still happening whether you are on 64bit Windows10 or 7. In this equation the operating system is less relevant as it has more to do with VAS restrictions imposed by 32bit application environments.

You stated: "Each new add-on increases realism and takes another bite out of VAS. This trend will never stop and this is why it is vital that 64-bit enter the scene." While this is true, I can't help but feel that this is more an excuse for Software Developers to avoid having to make more efficient use of what they have rather than use the  64bit card as a convenient cover for sloppy programming techniques.

Hi Mike,

The windows 10/7 debate is one I'm not qualified to even enter into - it is a personal decision that has to do with ones privacy and lawful rights.

The topic of LM or DTG finally making an optimized 64-bit successor to FSX/P3D is what I mainly care about. This is for too many reasons to report here, but here are a few.

We have seen many times in various forums " lower the sliders":

Orbx says one does not need autogen sliders at max with the FTX Global range of products installed. However I know for sure, and so does everybody, that this recommendation would not exist if OOM was not an issue. I have flown with full max settings, and with reasonable (no OOM) settings - I prefer full max settings, don't we all? its looks mush better to have a full forest and full city blocks. Orbx wants their customers to be totally happy, but they know OOM does not make us happy hence the recommendation.

PMDG has a lengthy section in their product manuals concerning OOM - Surly PMDG knows what they are talking about and that section will not need to exist once 64-bit arrives. How about the topic of an EFB in PMDG modern airliners. Surly we know how advanced that PMDG has made their FMC to be (an absolute marvel), and an EFB would already have been included in the 777. The camera system in the -300 extension was a genius effort, yet it can barely be used because of performance issues. But add that EFB and another bite out of VAS happens, so the "non essential" has to be scrapped until 64-bit arrives. Of course PMDG and we want that EFB installed, and include a fully operational circuit board as well; the 32-bit OOM plague keeps this from happening. I could start a CaptianSim/ PMDG comparison in this paragraph, but no thank you.  

The excellent Avsim P3D guide is full of recommendations to avoid OOMs. If LM had no intention of making a 64-bit successor I would predict that this document would end up being the champion of the most read/downloaded item on Avsim. The advice in there works, and it has a specific section about VAS/OOM on page 137. Once 64-bit arrives this document will have to be revised or a new one will have to be made and it may only need to be 20 pages rather than 159.

We have seen thru the years LM in the Update/Hot Fix notes speak about either increasing VAS efficiency or reducing VAS consumption....<sigh> it happens so often, yet the problem remains. We all know LM is totally aware that 99% of their customers use add-ons or at least modify the base product somehow to increase realism, and that there is no point in making a case that P3D alone does not OOM with max settings. Time and time again people against 64-bit use this "clean/green" install as a tool for debate when all the while they are in the exact same boat but for whatever reason they cannot admit the problem and/or demand a solution....backwards compatibility is a plague too whether we like it or not.

Have you seen the FSLabs recommended settings for P3D? Yes, even the written warnings near the nose gear are there in hi definition, but if a terminal building is totally missing from the scenery (reduce sliders) to avoid OOM, one has to ask themselves which feature they prefer between the two. It is crazy to accept this as a norm or a trend.

64-bit was the easy answer a long time ago even for FS9 and we would have been in great shape by now, but the love of backward compatibility blinded the community into this OOM nightmare of tradeoffs that other genres and LR (XP10+) resolved.

If I was totally thrilled with XP 11, I would not even be in this conversation because I have run XP11 for 5 days straight MAX settings with no OOM or CTD. A clean install of P3D 3.4 HF3 or FSX-SE can't do that...them AI planes, ground vehicles, boats, and cars at 100% will have something to say about that after one 24 hour day of takeoffs and landings.  

We all are plagued with this VAS limit and to be in favor of sticking with 32-bit is logic that goes nowhere in the face of advancing tech.

Respectfully,

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