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sd_flyer

XP11 impressions...opinions and etc

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 I'm passionate  simmer who fell in love with flightsims in early 90th. I'm also real world pilot and airplane owner.

Lately I've been reading a lot of impressions about XP11 from people who claim to be real world pilots. Being a real world pilot myself I often find opinions of other pilots vary on many different subjects - whether it is about flying a real world airplane or a flight simulator. But before I start ranting about this subject I want briefly introduce my real world experience.

I started to work on my private pilot certificate in 2002. So that what I consider my RW flying starting point. At the moment I hold FAA issued commercial pilot certificate in single and multiengine aircraft (both land), and flight instructor certificate in single engine airplane (land). NOTE: FAA CFI  must be automatically  instrument rated, so I'm instrument rated as well.

Before I owned my first airplane I was able to log some flight hours, not necessarily PIC time, but some stick time in following aircraft: 

American Champion: 7GCAA, 8KCAB ( as part of training)

Beechcraft: BE24, BE76, BE35-C33, BE35 (as PIC and CFI)

Cessna: C150, C152, C172B/N/P/R/SP, 182F (as PIC and CFI)

Mooney: M20E,M20C, M20J (as PIC, and as part of flight training)

North American: AT6  (as part of flight training)

Piper: PA28-140,PA28-151, PA28-161,PA28-181,PA28RT-201,PA28R-180/201T, PA24-250, PA32-300R, PA44 (as PIC and CFI)

Rockwell: AC114 (as PIC)

Yakovlev: YAK-18T, YAK-52 (as part of flight training)

Cirrus: SR22 (as CFI)

Now is the question why the heck I'm sharing all this information? Do you really want to impress anyone on this board? Yes of course I do LOL! Not just kidding! :) The real reason I listed it here is to share my point which bound my my personal experience flying small pool of airplanes. OK my points one by one:

1. Impression about any particular airplane will be shaped by the first airplane a pilot used in his/her flight training. I learn to fly in PA28180 and everything  I flown after I've been always comparing with my first PA28. By the way this is a great example of Law of Primacy - first impressions are always strongest.

2. Real world pilot who turned from long time flight simmer will perceive any flight simulator differently from real world pilot who started using flight sims after. Why? Because input method, muscle memory and sensory responds will be always different in the sim vs real world counterpart.  Flight simmer ( who become pilot later like myself)  will automatically compensate lack of real world sensory and quickly adjust to familiar flight sim feeling zone without loosing perception of authenticity. In contrast, real world pilot who discovered sim afterward will always find control input unrealistic. Trust me I tried to seduce a lot of my friend airplane, corporate, military pilot to fly my sims (FSX,P3D,XP11), and observed them carefully :)

3. Once I  read a blog of one pilot who flown Piper Archer first time after graduated in 172.  Not surprising that PA28 180 in his blog was label as "flying bus". Really? He  was calling my beautiful nimble first training aircraft like that? :)  I'd say wait until he flies  other 20 airplanes in the club ! His perception will change over time as get more experience! In fact,  well rounded pilots most likely find many airplanes within the same class fly pretty much the same with few small variations.

4. After I purchased my first airplane 172P, I back-leased it to the local club. My friend, a former airline pilot (with vast GA experience) decided rented it out. Shortly after his flight he called me to report that he really liked my 172, except it  reminded him of C-377 (O-2) that he flown in Vietnam. Why? Because controls were too stiff! Huh? Shortly after I asked my mechanic we opened up control cables and found the issue with excessive friction that we fixed after. So what the bottom line? Even the same type and model of airplane my fly a bit different (yet the same). Try to simulate that! 

5. Ownership changes perception about particular airplane that pilot may think he/she was familiar before. I have flown around 10 years before I own my first 172 ( I used to own C182 as well). I thought I knew everything about 172. Moreover, I was already instructing in predominately 172s and PA28. Boy was I wrong, I have learnt another 80% things  I didn't know before. By the way, this point closely related to my point above ( number 4). Ownership changes perception! We only think we know what we fly!

6. Teaching  is different from just flying. Once again my perceptions have changed when I started to teach in aircraft that seemed were so  familiar to me before. Just like ownership and adds another layer of perception, knowledge and ohhh bias :) Well, when you do stalls airplanes weekly you certainly discover many interesting aspect that you haven't noticed before.

 

Summary: never trust opinions of real world pilots as they biased and limited to their knowledge, background, and experiences . Just look at me as an example. I love XP11 and consider it very realistic, but I'm also a subject to my limited knowledge, limited perceptions, and relatively small  pool of airplanes I flown. So RW pilot quit your yapping about XP11 and it shortcoming unless of course its constructive criticism  to make XP11 better. Other than that XP11 is the best sim ever.. for me of course :cool:

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After years of being an Avsim user, I've learned the hard way to always take information from "real pilots" with a huge, heaping grain of salt.

We here and on other fora tend to give nearly worshipful credence to "pilot" pronouncements on this and that, (arguments from authority) but observation over time shows that pilots differ widely between themselves on almost every subject regarding the correct "feel" of simulation aircraft, (and much else besides) providing contrasting personal impressions that tend, at least in my mind, to mutually annihilate each others right to make essentially unquestioned declarations.

Essentially, unless it's an issue of actual regulations and procedure, I tend to give them only the slightest bit of weight above any other knowledgeable simmer.

My memory is simply too full of one Pilot announcing such and such an aircraft flies "unrealistically" and "like garbage", almost instantly countered by another pilot saying the exact same aircraft seemed ok.

Bleah.

Unless the conclusions are pretty much unanimous, I think people should just try things themselves and maybe stop looking for absolute perfection on a desktop platform from a $29 aircraft. :mellow:

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44 minutes ago, sd_flyer said:

2. Real world pilot who turned from long time flight simmer will perceive any flight simulator differently from real world pilot who started using flight sims after. Why? Because input method, muscle memory and sensory responds will be always different in the sim vs real world counterpart.  Flight simmer ( who become pilot later like myself)  will automatically compensate lack of real world sensory and quickly adjust to familiar flight sim feeling zone without loosing perception of authenticity. In contrast, real world pilot who discovered sim afterward will always find control input unrealistic. Trust me I tried to seduce a lot of my friend airplane, corporate, military pilot to fly my sims (FSX,P3D,XP11), and observed them carefully :)

Interesting observation.  I was a real world pilot years before I ever touched a sim. I never really had issues with the control input feel in the sim, providing the aircraft has a reasonably good flight model. I guess I just get that you simply don't get the same feedback through the controls and the seat-of-your-pants feedback as in the real world. My brain compensates for the lack of feedback, so the experience is still great. While I spend most of my time in X-plane now, I don't think the sim is as important as the quality of the flight model of a particular aircraft when it comes to what feels the most realistic. For that reason I stay clear of the which sim has the best flight model debate, especially with the latest generation of sims. IMO it comes down to the particular aircraft, much more than the sim.

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57 minutes ago, sd_flyer said:

Summary: never trust opinions of real world pilots as they biased and limited to their knowledge, background, and experiences

I wouldn't go so far as to never trust opinions of real world pilots - one certainly should filter them. I remember when flight training with different instructors, how many different approaches they had to a given situation or technique. At the end of the day I had to take what I thought to be the best ideas and incorporate them into my own techniques and proceedures.

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26 minutes ago, turnandbank said:

Interesting observation.  I was a real world pilot years before I ever touched a sim. I never really had issues with the control input feel in the sim, providing the aircraft has a reasonably good flight model. I guess I just get that you simply don't get the same feedback through the controls and the seat-of-your-pants feedback as in the real world. My brain compensates for the lack of feedback, so the experience is still great. While I spend most of my time in X-plane now, I don't think the sim is as important as the quality of the flight model of a particular aircraft when it comes to what feels the most realistic. For that reason I stay clear of the which sim has the best flight model debate, especially with the latest generation of sims. IMO it comes down to the particular aircraft, much more than the sim.

I probably should haven not generalize on that point. Yes there is always the exception to that observation. But it crack me up when my flying buds get to my sim and try to touch gently on the joystick and then trim and then touch it again and trim look at me with face expression like W T H ? LOL 

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Excellent read - OP!

I got my pilot license in 1980, and started using sims, seriously, in 1993 - 94. I agree with your point of view regarding pilot / simmer posture depending on various factors.

Thx for sharing your thoughts!

 

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4 hours ago, HiFlyer said:

stop looking for absolute perfection on a desktop platform from a $29 aircraft. :mellow:

I completely agree on that, but I'd like to have at least decent crosswind ops. :biggrin:

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I'll go a step further. Don't trust anyone else's opinions on a flight sim, that is of course except one's own opinion.

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For many years I was a RW Pilot & CFII and never used that on AVSIM to gain credibility. Even though I knew about RW flying, I knew very little about building a computer, buying hardware for a sim, setting up a simulator like FSX or XPlane, and buying add-ons for the chosen sim. Simming a completely different ball game than RW flying.

A RW Pilot can gain a lot of joy from using a flight simulator provided they have the computer, the controllers, and the right sim & add-ons. That's the learning curve.

For me, XP 11 can be improved significantly with better weather depiction, a working VFR ATC system, and improved airplane ground handling. Those 3 things will make the XP 11 much more enjoyable and much more realistic for this RW Plot and certainly enhance most simmer's experience.

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30 minutes ago, jabloomf1230 said:

I'll go a step further. Don't trust anyone else's opinions on a flight sim, that is of course except one's own opinion.

LOL!:biggrin:

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I'm a real world sim pilot and find that real aircraft don't handle realistically. It also kills immersion when flying a real aircraft that OOMs or CTDs never seem to happen. Just when I'd ordinarily take the opportunity to grab another beer, I have to pay attention to my trim and talk to some awfully brusque people on the radio. Again, total immersion killer.

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18 hours ago, jabloomf1230 said:

I'll go a step further. Don't trust anyone else's opinions on a flight sim, that is of course except one's own opinion.

I'll go even a step further. Dont trust ANYONE else's opinion for anything in your life :) sure, you listen/read what they have to say but in the end you are "flying the plane" that goes for everything in life....

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Fortunately, most people are more hesitant to give someone else advice on life-changing issues than advice about what flight sim is best.

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It's worth noting that, just as there are some terrible drivers (who presumably have a driving licence), there are some terrible pilots (who also presumably have a licence), so the fact that someone has a pilot's licence, or even an instructor rating, doesn't necessarily mean one should trust their opinion, or the way they fly lol (found that out the hard way once). And even if someone is a good pilot, it still doesn't mean one should trust their opinion about a particular aeroplane.

I certainly agree that flyers are always going to be subjectively defensive about the first aeroplane they flew for real, even if it was a complete POS. I know nobody will ever get an objectively fair opinion from me about the Polish-built PZL Bielsko SZD 50-3 Puchacz, because it was the first aeroplane I did a solo in, the first one I did spin training in, the first one I ever looped, the one I learned basic aerobatics in, and it was the first aeroplane I ever did an emergency landing in too. So it really taught me a lot about flying as a result of having a ton of hours in the thing. Thus I love that little bird with all my heart, even though it is about as basic an aeroplane as you could ever find and if I'm honest, with its pebbledashed glassfibre interior 'finish', it looks like it was built in a Soviet tractor factory. I still personally wouldn't have a word said against it, and still prefer it to much posher and way more complex and capable aeroplanes which I've flown, but that's inevitable when it was the one in which I sat nervously waiting to take off for that first ever solo flight, to be rewarded with the gift of flying for having trusted its wings.

A more objective search for some facts about it would reveal that it has been criticised for having been involved in a number of fatal spin accidents and has suffered some failures of the controls in early models, so the truth is, you really probably shouldn't trust this particular pilot's rose-tinted opinion on it at all, because the truth is rather different. :laugh:

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Generally its also a good idea to stay away from review / opinion topics with superlatives in the title, to get a more neutral view.

 

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On 7/13/2017 at 9:03 PM, garrett_frank said:

I'm a real world sim pilot and find that real aircraft don't handle realistically. It also kills immersion when flying a real aircraft that OOMs or CTDs never seem to happen. Just when I'd ordinarily take the opportunity to grab another beer, I have to pay attention to my trim and talk to some awfully brusque people on the radio. Again, total immersion killer.

Jajajaja!

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